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I'm going to ask the inverse question here that I asked in another tribe. How many of us believe in astrology?
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Unsu...
Re: Astrology?
Fri, December 21, 2007 - 8:24 AMI do not. (That is, I don't think it is a useful guide in living one's life. However, I *do* believe there is such a thing as astrology and that some people take it very seriously.) -
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Re: Astrology?
Fri, December 21, 2007 - 8:41 AMLol. Great that you picked up on that Josh. It always cracks me up when someone asks a question like that.
Who in here believes in dogs? Yes, I guess I do. I've actually seen a few in my day. So what does that mean?
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Re: Astrology?
Fri, December 21, 2007 - 8:31 AMIt doesn't seem like it is compatible with atheism to me.
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Re: Astrology?
Fri, December 21, 2007 - 8:51 AMJesus read my cards and told me me that this is not the month to stop huffing glue. Also, there could be death in my future.
Oh, hey... by the way...I may be the next saviour. Last night I turned wine into water (with 5% uric solutes). -
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Re: Astrology?
Fri, December 21, 2007 - 10:15 AMExcellent! But is there anyone among us who buys into astrology as a useful construct for predicting/guiding's one's life? -
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Re: Astrology?
Fri, December 21, 2007 - 11:21 AMIs astrology useful? That's actually a tough one.
Astrology is bogus, yes. The planets have nothing to do with our personalities.
BUT...
The reason why astrology is popular is because it makes statements that seem specific while actually being universally applicable. Like cold reading. Cold reading is NOT talking to the dead. But cold reading is a very interesting psychological phenomenon, which we might not have much understanding of if people weren't using it to supposedly talk to the dead.
So, yes, I think astrology can be useful in a Rohrsarch test kind of way. -
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Re: Astrology?
Fri, December 21, 2007 - 11:40 AMI went to a "professional" astrologer in Australia once. She printed up my chart and future predictions etc. It was very informative. After "seeing" my future, she felt so bad for me that she gave half of my money back - I'm not kidding.
i don't "believe" in astrology and would never do that again except for fun which is why I did it then too. However, astrology today is a misuse and abuse of the astrology of the ancients, like the Egyptians for example. Todays astrology is a dumbed down version to rip people off. -
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Re: Astrology?
Fri, December 21, 2007 - 12:22 PMRight, because the Ancients really had their shit together.
So, what is "legitimate" astrology? -
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Re: Astrology?
Fri, December 21, 2007 - 2:07 PMNot because they had their shit together, but because they really believed in what they were doing, unlike today where it's practiced by glass lookers preying on the ignorant and the stupid in order to earn their living.
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Re: Astrology?
Fri, December 21, 2007 - 2:14 PM"had their shit together"
Well, I'm not sure how mean that comment - sarcasm etc. I didn't make any claims other than todays astrology like goat mentioned, would probably offend the ancients.
One thing the ancients were certainly smarter on rather than todays religious bunch like Christianity is that they didn't always take their religious views LITERAL - they were symbolic of natural phenomena.
"At Stonehenge in England and Carnac in France, in Egypt and Yucatan, across the whole face of the earth are found mysterious ruins of ancient monuments, monuments with astronomical significants. These relics of other times are as accessible as the American Midwest and as remote as the jungles of Guatemala. Some of them were built according to celestial alignments; others were actually precision astronomical observatories... Careful observation of the celestial rhythms was compellingly important to early peoples, and their expertise, in some respects, was not equaled in Europe until three thousand years later."
~ Dr. Edwin Krupp "Suns of God" page 26
www.truthbeknown.com/sunsofgod.htm
* Dr. Edwin Krupp is an Astronomer and Director of the Griffith Observatory in Los Angeles.
www.griffithobs.org -
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Re: Astrology?
Fri, December 21, 2007 - 2:27 PMThat comment was intended to be mean. It's idiotic to suggest that the ancients knew more about the natural world than we do or that astrology is more legitimate if you really believe it.
Astrology is bunk, plain and simple, useful only for revealing patterns of human credulity.
And the enlightened "ancients" were much more literal about their holy books than we are. You're much more likely to run into believers today who take their holy books metaphorically. Not that such people didn't exist in the past. It's just that they, you know, usually got executed for heresy or apostasy.
Ancient cultures treated women as property, cowered in fear of the elements, hounded, persecuted and pogromed all non-conformists, practiced human sacrifice and other blood rituals and were otherwise a gaggle of unwashed, uneducated, unpleasant, primitive nincompoops.
The most hypocritical, sniveling, hate-mongering televangelist in today's world looks like the love child of Einstein and Spinoza compared to the average ancient person.
And if they'd find that insulting...GOOD. I've got no particular alergy to being insulting. It's insulting to the progress of humankind and the Enlightenment to suggest that a bunch of ancient superstitious nonsense has any place at the table of human discourse.
Is that meanness clear enough? -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
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Re: Astrology?
Fri, December 21, 2007 - 3:52 PMThanks for the clarification. I would have to disagree. Your comments demonstrate a total lack of education on the ancient world, maybe you missed this part of the quote.
"...Careful observation of the celestial rhythms was compellingly important to early peoples, and their expertise, in some respects, was not equaled in Europe until three thousand years later."
I repeat, "...WAS NOT EQUALED IN EUROPE UNTIL 3,000 YEARS LATER"
J "It's idiotic to suggest that the ancients knew more about the natural world than we do or that astrology is more legitimate if you really believe it."
- I said neither of these, this is a straw man argument. You're missing the point, probably because you don't know what I'm talking about. Fair enough.
J "Astrology is bunk, plain and simple"
- Agreed
J "And the enlightened "ancients" were much more literal about their holy books than we are. You're much more likely to run into believers today who take their holy books metaphorically. Not that such people didn't exist in the past. It's just that they, you know, usually got executed for heresy or apostasy. "
- This comment is totally bunk and demonstrates a total lack of understanding of the ancients as well as religious groups today. For example, Egypt was clear that their myths, personifications and symbology was in regards to the SUN.
Today, we have Islam and Muslims who will execute for heresy, apostasy or infidels or anyone who insults Islam or Muhammad. Christianity has killed many in its past. How many did the Egyptians kill in the name of their gods? The numbers for the dead under Islam since its creation are 270 million. Christianity is at 250 million.
J "Ancient cultures treated women as property, cowered in fear of the elements, hounded, persecuted and pogromed all non-conformists, practiced human sacrifice and other blood rituals and were otherwise a gaggle of unwashed, uneducated, unpleasant, primitive nincompoops. "
- It depends on what era & location you're talking about. Still, again, we have all of that within Islam TODAY.
J "It's insulting to the progress of humankind and the Enlightenment to suggest that a bunch of ancient superstitious nonsense has any place at the table of human discourse."
- Yes, perhaps you're correct things are so AWESOME today throughout the world aren't they (sarcasm). We are so enlightened that we, with our superiority, still can't figure out how the Egyptians built those pesky pyramids.
J "Is that meanness clear enough?"
- It wasn't nearly as mean as it was, well, ignorant.
Enjoy these VIDEOS of Muslim clerics speaking to other Muslims spreading hate speech - they've been doing this long BEFORE 9-11.
islamwatchers.blogspot.com/
Dhimwit:
"A non-Muslim member of a free society that abets the stated cause of Islamic domination with remarkable gullibility. A dhimwit is always quick to extend sympathy to the very enemy that would take away his or her own freedom (or life) if given the opportunity."
www.thereligionofpeace.com/Page...s.htm
"Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth."
Omar M. Ahmad, founder of Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR)
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Re: Astrology?
Fri, December 21, 2007 - 4:11 PMUm, the ancient Egyptians practiced crucifixion and while I agree that the modern world has a lot of barbarity to answer for, that doesn't let them off the hook.
You can proclaim my ignorance if you like, but facts are facts. You stood a MUCH higher chance of being executed by your fellow humans for religious non-conformity in Ancient Egypt than you do in the modern West or even in the bulk of the modern Muslim world.
And yes, the modern Muslim world is very barbaric. Almost as much as the ancient world. The Muslim world had a period of enlightenment where they developed many of the ideas we depend on today, but then the reverted BACK to the practices of their forbears and abandoned the gifts of that enlightenment.
You see in modern Muslim societies that behead women for being raped a glimpse of what our wise elders would have called "any given Sunday."
For example, you could be executed (drowned in the Nile, sacrificed to the gods or crucified) in Ancient Egypt for the crime of touching the Pharoh's scepter.
Touching an object.
www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt...ndex.html
If you want to roll the dice and randomly pick a country or civilization that has abolished the death penalty, you're much more likely to find one in the modern world than in the ancient. And no, America's record on this score is nothing to be proud of.
And yes, Stonehenge is a fine timepiece. I didn't say they were total incompetents. But it has been equaled and surpassed. Nothing more to learn from Stonehenge vis. the movements of the heavens. The Hubble telescope is a much greater monument to our astronomical greatness than an ancient pile of rocks.
My point is not that ancient people should be reviled or rejected, but rather that reverence for the ancients is much, much, much, much less justified than reverence for modern civilization...which is not all that justified.
Between living in the modern world and living in the ancient world, I'll take the modern thank you very much.
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Re: Astrology?
Fri, December 21, 2007 - 4:57 PMAh, you know, you may want to expand your understanding of the ancient world a leeeetle bit past what's presented in Zeitgeist.
It's about as reliably historical as "What the Bleep...?" is reliably scientific.
When the texts you're using to back up your argument breathlessly implore you to "go beyond the DaVinci Code," a little rational skepticism might do you well.
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Unsu...
Re: Astrology?
Sat, December 22, 2007 - 12:39 PM>>>>>>>>The reason why astrology is popular is because it makes statements that seem specific while actually being universally applicable. <<<<<<<
There's a great story about superstition in Goldman's "Adventures in the Screen Trade." He argues that although the "suits" in Hollywood are well-educated people, they must make decisions (-such as which weekend to open a movie, or who to cast as Batman, or whether it's time for another Western, whatever) upon which fortunes and their careers ride and there's no *rational* way to make them. There's just no *knowing* today whether the audience will be in the mood for a caper-comedy in the summer of 2009. But yet you have to make a decision about that.
He talked about an executive who had his limo driver find a lady every morning who sold apples. It was his lucky apple. He knew the apple wasn't lucky. But he also knew he had to have something that allowed him to live with the decisions he had to make.
After reading that, I developed some sympathy for executives. You cast Clooney as Batman and your career dies. You invest five million in "Big Fat Greek Wedding" and earn back 500 million. Who fucking knew? Who *could* know?
All this to say, I *do* see how astrology could prove valuable even to someone teaching at Princeton who knew it was "bogus" yet still found it settled the nerves and made the day easier to face. (Not that I recommend this, mind you; I just can see it. I'm a very open guy!)
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Re: Astrology?
Fri, December 21, 2007 - 4:05 PMI personally believe in anthropomancy, the reading of human entrails.
My beliefs are currently persecuted in that my sacred rituals are considered illegal in this supposedly enlightened country. Fuckers. -
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Re: Astrology?
Fri, December 21, 2007 - 4:25 PM"- Yes, perhaps you're correct things are so AWESOME today throughout the world aren't they (sarcasm). We are so enlightened that we, with our superiority, still can't figure out how the Egyptians built those pesky pyramids."
I didn't say things were AWESOME today...I said that the things that ARE awesome today are a result of Enlightenment-style thinking, not reverence for ancient beliefs.
And there are multiple viable hypotheses for the construction of the pyramids, mostly involving mass human labor and ratchet-based construction.
What we don't know is SPECIFICALLY how the Egyptians built those pesky pyramids and we probably never will because we weren't there, but that doesn't mean we're clueless.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyp...techniques
Two things we do know, these "great" monuments were:
a) religiously inspired and
b) built by slaves who were considered the property of the Pharaoh, a living god -
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Re: Astrology?
Sat, December 22, 2007 - 12:13 PMMore contemporary archeological evidence lends strong support to the view that the pyramids at Giza were not built by slaves. There is evidence of medical care--the setting of broken bones (why bother with slaves?), remains of fish bones (which would have been imported from the Nile at some cost and certainly not the food of slaves), and the outlying city size is too small to house what was previously believed to be a massive slave population indicating a much smaller but highly skilled population.
The view that the pyramids were buiolt by slaves was promoited by ignorant Xtians as the motivating reason behind Moses' fleeing with the jews and why they were disgruntled and to add another element to their (evangelical Xtian) false view of historic persecution of all of god's chosen people and how this persecution will continue until Armageddon when they will rule "with an iron rod" as foretold in the Revelation of John. -
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Re: Astrology?
Sat, December 22, 2007 - 12:34 PMSo it would seem that an atheist is also not-so-much on astrology. That there's a correlation between the two "dis-beliefs." -
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Re: Astrology?
Sat, December 22, 2007 - 12:42 PM>>> So it would seem that an atheist is also not-so-much on astrology. That there's a correlation between the two "dis-beliefs."
Probably, since most people come to atheism out of a desire to embrace evidence-based reasoning. Astrology falls flat on that score.
There are a lot of people, though, who reject theism and embrace things like astrology, tarot, crystalography, etc. But they don't usually call themselves "atheists" in my experience.
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Re: Astrology?
Sat, December 22, 2007 - 12:38 PMI'll concede the point on the pyramids. But the fact remains that the ancient Egyptians did practice slavery.
This doesn't make them uniquely barbaric in the ancient world. In fact, we probably couldn't have had civilization without slavery. It's also important to note that "slave" wasn't the same thing back then as we think of it now. Slaves had a lot more freedom and opportunity.
Nonetheless, my point is that the social order of ancient Egypt is something we'd find abhorrent today. Not because the Egyptians were particularly evil or anything, but because we hadn't had the benefit of millenia of social development.
To wit, we do not regard our leaders as living gods. We do not execute people for offending living gods. We try to treat people equally under the law and not base their legal protections on whether they are peasants, slaves, freedmen or royalty.
It's like ancient Rome. There's much to admire about how Rome developed in the world. Same with Egypt. We could well claim that the Roman Empire fell into barbarity as it fell into Christianity and we may well blame the cult of Josua for corrupting a great civilization.
But that would not excuse the Romans from the fact that they were superstitious, racist, brutal, illiterate, anti-intellectual, primitive-minded barbarian conquerors.
If we held the ancient Egyptians or the (less) ancient Romans to the modern standards of human rights (say, UN charter), they would be down around the North Korea level.
And I make no apology for the rape of our culture at the hands of Christians. They've done their level best to keep us locked in ignorance and that's inexcusable. Now doubt, the church has promoted many falsehoods about the ancient world in furtherance of this.
But that doesn't make the ancient world paradise. Selling that is as wrong as selling salvation by vicarious resurrection. -
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Unsu...
Re: Astrology?
Sat, December 22, 2007 - 12:47 PM>>>>>>>>>Now doubt, the church has promoted many falsehoods about the ancient world in furtherance of this. <<<<<<
If it weren't for the Church, we'd know very little about the ancient world. Who do you think kept making copies of the books we do have from 'way back when'? -
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Re: Astrology?
Sat, December 22, 2007 - 1:25 PM>>>>>>>>>>>If it weren't for the Church, we'd know very little about the ancient world. Who do you think kept making copies of the books we do have from 'way back when'?
If we didn't have the church, we would know more about the ancient world. The copies of the books that you are talking about was because the church insisted on monopolizing written language. The church had also made sure that much information that conflicting to its "teachings" were often either censored or destroyed.
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Re: Astrology?
Sun, December 23, 2007 - 12:39 PM"But that would not excuse the Romans from the fact that they were superstitious, racist, brutal, illiterate, anti-intellectual, primitive-minded barbarian conquerors."
Okay, I know you give the ancient Romans some credit earlier when you said that there was much to admire about them. But I have to defend them a little here. I object to them being painted as an "illiterate, anti-intellectual" people. They were often incredibly well-educated (even many slaves could read, write, and calculate) and their economic system was very complex, down the the bread-makers on the street. They advanced architecture and building technology to such an extent that many of their structures remain standing today, two thousand years later (none of our modern architecture is going to last one-tenth that long). They were proponents of very modern philosophical, governmental, and legal ideas, many of which are still utilized today.
Human rights issues aside, it's important to remember that the ancients were just as clever and resourceful as modern humans -- if not more so, because they had less to work with.
And your description I quoted above could just as easily be applied to the modern United States.
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Unsu...
Re: Astrology?
Sat, December 22, 2007 - 12:44 PM>>>>> The view that the pyramids were buiolt by slaves was promoited by ignorant Xtians as the motivating reason behind Moses' fleeing with the jew....<<<<<
Curiously, the Bible doesn't mention the pyramids.
Are you suggesting that there were never slaves in Egypt? -
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Re: Astrology?
Sat, December 22, 2007 - 1:51 PM<<<<<Curiously, the Bible doesn't mention the pyramids. >>>>>
A simple Google search will show reveal instances of what I said.
<<<<<Are you suggesting that there were never slaves in Egypt? >>>>
My point was about the builders of the pyramids not the practice of slavery in Egypt. I am sick you you turning comments backwards. -
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Re: Astrology?
Sat, December 22, 2007 - 2:27 PMBut herein lies all sorts of speculation. We don't know who ate the fish. Maybe the slave handlers? Maybe the rich slave owners when they came to make site inspections? It's all just speculation. -
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Re: Astrology?
Sat, December 22, 2007 - 10:06 PMFor those who are actually interested ... enjoy this fascinating read...
"Astronomical or astrotheological knowledge reaches back to the dawn of humanity, appearing widespread and becoming highly developed over a period of millennia. In its entry on "Astrology," the Catholic Encyclopedia describes the development of this archaic science in the ancient world:"
It's too long to post here and needs to be in context with the rest of the excerpt anyway so, read the full article and what the Catholic Encyclopedia has to say about astrology here - www.truthbeknown.com/astrotheology.html
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Re: Astrology?
Sat, December 22, 2007 - 11:06 PM<<<<But herein lies all sorts of speculation. >>>>
Archeological evidence supports abductive reasoning (inductive reasoning backwards to the best explanation). I suggest you watch the History Channel documenty at minimum, if not read the academic archeology papers, before making such claims. -
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Re: Astrology?
Sun, December 23, 2007 - 5:06 AM>>>>> The view that the pyramids were buiolt by slaves was promoited by ignorant Xtians as the motivating reason behind Moses' fleeing with the jew....<<<<<
<<<Curiously, the Bible doesn't mention the pyramids. Are you suggesting that there were never slaves in Egypt?>>>
We know that there were slaves in Egypt because the Egyptians were obsessive scribes who felt the need to write everything down. An example of this was from the records of Imperial scribes that were tabulating the farm animals on a peasant's farm. The scribes not only recorded the number of animals, they went so far as to describe the unique appearance and characteristics of every baby chick which had been born on that particular farm. (i.e. 'This one had a black spot the shape of a papyrus leaf upon the upper section of it's back, etc.)
To paraphrase the Simpson's lawyer Lionel Hutz, "All those hieroglyphic texts just don't look good in a museum, they are crammed with useful archaeological information."
The Pharaoh might have been the undisputed Emperor, yet he was hardly any more 'free' than the other Egyptians were. Every action in his life no matter how mundane was dictated by an elaborate set of proscribed rituals. Imagine performing the equivalent of the Japanese tea ritual for even the most mundane of your daily activities. There is also a set of proscribed rituals for the way which the Pharaoh would greet a slave, and how a slave would greet the Pharaoh. The Pharaoh would be expected to genuflect towards the slave in greetings, and to recognize that the slave was a useful contributing member of society.
Slaves in Egypt were for the most part privately owned domestic servants, cleaning and doing laundry in the houses of the wealthy. The idea that slaves were used to build the pyramids was a myth started in a Cecil B. DeMille film. Slaves in Ancient Egyptian society would no more be entrusted to build the great pyramids of Egypt than a modern-day chain gang (or 19th century African slaves) would be entrusted to carve the portraits on the side of Mount Rushmore, and for exactly the same reasons. The pyramids of Egypt were built using farmers as the primary labor force. This happened in the winter time when the farmer's fields were flooded over by the waters of the Nile river, hence giving the farmers 'time off' to engage in civil projects.
The farmers working on the pyramids lived in tent-city encampments during this time. Archaeologists had long speculated how so many people could live for so long in such close quarters without disease epidemics becoming rampant. Then it was discovered that the Ancient Egyptians were able to control the spread of disease by introducing a diet heavy in garlic and onions, which are known to have antiseptic qualities. For the most part, the staple diet of the pyramid workers was BEER. Beer was in fact an Egyptian invention. Huge amounts of barley were mixed with water where they naturally fermented over the course of time. Mold and scum simply floated to the top, where it was skimmed from the surface. The Egyptians doled this porridge-like beer out with ladles into the wooden bowls of the pyramid workers in regular intervals throughout the day, particularly during the heat of the noon-day sun during which time work was not possible.
The Pyramids themselves were constructed entirely for the purposes of coinciding with Astrological / Astronomic events. In all of the great pyramids at Cheops, the funeral chambers of the Pharaoh are designed in such a way as to permit star light from the star Sirius to illuminate the face on the sarcophagus of the dead Pharaoh once a year, during the time of the winter solstice (December 22-25). The star 'Sirius' is also the very same star which according to legend the 'three wise men' (stars in the belt of Orion) followed to find the birth place of Jesus (aka Horus).
www.egyptologyonline.com/astronomy.htm
The fact that the pyramids are not mentioned in the bible would if anything, conclude that the slaves of Egypt mentioned in Exodus were clearly NOT being used for pyramid construction, or else the pyramids would have surely been mentioned.
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As far as the idea that the Bible is our only source of historical information about the Ancients is concerned, this is a woeful display of complete and utter ignorance. Not only do we have such texts as the Code of Hammurabi from the Babylonians in the language of 'linear-A', but we also have voluminous texts in both formal and informal hieroglyphics regarding the history of Ancient Egypt. This statement demonstrates a complete and utter lack of knowledge of the 'father of History', the ancient Greek Herodotus who lived between 484-425 B.C. Note that there was such a thing as historical record before Herodotus. Then there were the historical works Thucydides, Xenophon, Sallust, Strabo, Siculus, and Livy to name but a few. The works of whom have all survived to this day.
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Re: Astrology?
Sat, December 22, 2007 - 11:04 PM<<<<<Curiously, the Bible doesn't mention the pyramids. >>>>>
Furthermore, the Bible never mentions abortion, stem cell research, IVF, condoms, HIV/AIDs and a host of other things but that does not stop that asshole who calls himself "Pope" (and all other "popes") from issuing "proclomations" on those topics.
While I am thinking of it, why is it Josh that you have NEVER mentioned one word in relation to the fact that Joey the Rat attempted to cover-up the pedophile priests, shuffled them around the country rather than removing them from the public, and is now wanting them granted amnesty!!! You are deafeningly silent on these issues. I would appreciate it if you remained silent on ALL other matters until these issues are addressed!!!
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Re: Astrology?
Sun, December 23, 2007 - 12:25 PM"the setting of broken bones (why bother with slaves?)"
It's called protecting your investment. I'm not saying that they were or were not slaves, but this fact doesn't -- by itself -- constitute evidence that such patients *weren't* slaves. -
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Re: Astrology?
Sun, December 23, 2007 - 2:18 PMGranted but I never said that each example was independently sufficient to derive the conclusion. -
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Re: Astrology?
Mon, December 24, 2007 - 1:07 AMNo, you misunderstand; my fault for ambiguous grammar. I wasn't trying to argue that individual issues must be independently sufficient to prove the point, but admitting that just picking on that one fact didn't prove anything either way. My sentence can be read two ways.
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Re: Astrology?
Sun, December 23, 2007 - 4:13 PMThis thread seems to have degenerated into a discussion of the morality of Ancient Egyptian society, but what the hell, here's my two cents:
I think there's something to astrology, though what, specifically, may not be the same as the conventional wisdom. I've had friends approached by random strangers in bars, who say, correctly, "You're a Gemini!" Needless to say, the Gemini in question was a little freaked out. I've done a little reading in astrology, and have gotten to the point where I can do this same parlor trick with reasonable accuracy -- far from perfect, but still, much better than if my results were due to chance. Notably, my accuracy improves the more I practice. I hope to conduct a more systematic investigation and publish my results.
I also think there's a sound basis for thinking that the position of the sun, moon, or horizon in the sky would correspond to notable aspects of someone's appearance or personality: throughout most of human history, the infant mortality rate has been very high, thus the greatest determinant of whether a baby survives to reproduce is how well it deals with the environment of its first few months, days, or even hours. In light of this, it seems foolish to think that there would be absolutely no noticeable patterns relating the date of one's birth to some other expressed traits.
Scientific evidence has been coming to light which does show evidence for such adaptations: recently, reputable scientists (see: www.springerlink.com/content...ca9nfen/ ) found a connection between subjects' baseline levels of various neurotransmitters, and the month of their birth. The authors of the study were careful to distance their work from astrology, speculating (without substantial evidence) that the variation was due to the amount of sunlight the each subject's mother got while pregnant. Even assuming this is true, it only shows that the branch of astrology this relates to ("sun-sign personal astrology") still has much basis in fact, but may be merely inaccurate in some cases due to its use of an indirect measure. Notably, the personality effects of the various neurotransmitter levels are precisely what is predicted by mainstream astrology: that people born in fall and winter tend to have more sedate, even dour personalities, while people born in spring and summer tend to be more boisterous, energetic, and outgoing. Naturally, these are also the qualities one would expect are well-adapted to being born in the various seasons: a spring or summer baby would have access to more food, so they can be more active than a baby born in the fall or winter, when food is presumably more scarce. A relatively easy study that would confirm or deny this hypothesized mechanism would be to do the same study in the southern hemisphere, or in the tropics, where incident sunlight throughout the year is relatively constant, and seasonal food shortages follow the pattern of rain more than sun.
That said, for all my faith in the possibilities of astrology, I'm the first to admit that concrete evidence, for or to the contrary, remains very incomplete. My hunch is that relationships will be shown with the positions of the sun, moon, and possibly ascendant (position of the horizon, i.e. time of day), but the other planets will have no effect, though I could be surprised on that count: some people say they can spot Chinese signs, which relies on Jupiter's cycle, which is very close to twelve of Earth's years. This may not be a coincidence, both in terms of any correlation to Earthly happennings, as well as why it has the orbital period it does (see Bode's Law).
Astrology, as its detractors rightly point out, is very prone to problems of falsifiability, so any attempt to separate those parts of astrology which are bunk from any which may be valid needs to be both comprehensive and systematic. Our first records of people practicing astrology, along with our first records of people trying to debunk it, are practically contemporary with the invention of writing, so it's quite possible astrology, and the debate over its validity, are both far older. I'm optimistic this age-old question, like so many others, will soon be settled with a thorough empirical investigation. -
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Re: Astrology?
Thu, December 27, 2007 - 10:54 AM<<<<Scientific evidence has been coming to light which does show evidence for such adaptations: recently, reputable scientists (see: www.springerlink.com/content...ca9nfen/ ) found a connection between subjects' baseline levels of various neurotransmitters, and the month of their birth. The authors of the study were careful to distance their work from astrology, speculating (without substantial evidence) that the variation was due to the amount of sunlight the each subject's mother got while pregnant.>>>>>
Why would they speculate that the neurotransmitter "demographic" was related to sunlight? Did they at least ask correlative type questions such as "Do you sunbath? How many hours per day/week/month?" Correlations with residency (beach verses mountain, etc.)
After all, neurotransmitters are built from the foods we eat and diets can change with the seasons and residency, and socio-economic status...
Sunlight does help produce calcium but that is very different from dopamine, serotonin,...
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Re: Astrology?
Thu, December 27, 2007 - 10:05 AMHow many of you believe that the tides are caused by the gravitational pull of the moon ?
How many of you know how much of a human body is liquid ?
Tapan -
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Re: Astrology?
Thu, December 27, 2007 - 11:24 AM
Let me clarify .......
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrology
Astrology (from Greek: ἄστρον (astron), "star", and λόγος (logos), "theory", "study": lit. study of the stars) is a group of systems, traditions, and beliefs in which knowledge of the relative positions of celestial bodies and related details is held to be useful in understanding, interpreting, and organizing information about personality, human affairs, and other terrestrial matters.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water
For example a cell of Escherichia coli contains 70% of water, a human body 60-70%, plant body up to 90% and the body of an adult jellyfish is made up of 94–98% water.
So if you have no trouble believing that tides are caused by the gravitational pull of the moon ? Why do you have trouble believing that the gravitational pull of other planetary bodies can affect the behaviour of the human nature ? After all we are 70% liquid .
Its an incomplete science but then show me a complete science........
Tapandy -
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Re: Astrology?
Thu, December 27, 2007 - 4:00 PMbecause there's no reason to whatsoever.
and it's not a science at all.
"So if you have no trouble believing that tides are caused by the gravitational pull of the moon ? Why do you have trouble believing that the gravitational pull of other planetary bodies can affect the behaviour of the human nature ? After all we are 70% liquid .
Its an incomplete science but then show me a complete science........ "
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Re: Astrology?
Thu, December 27, 2007 - 4:19 PMSo, Tapan, your argument is basically that of all creatures on earth, the ones gaining the most benefit from reading their daily horoscope would be jellyfish. -
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Re: Astrology?
Thu, December 27, 2007 - 6:24 PMCorrect . Maybe Allen can start the jellyfish daily and put in a daily horoscope.
Virgo : - Don't go beyond the reef today. The scientific atheists will come and
cut you open and put your DNA into a cat to make a glowing kitten.
"No they haven't cured cancer yet. "
"No AIDS neither."
"Yes dear jellyfish they are the same people who killed millions in China from 1929 to 1948.
"No, I don't think they will spare you even though you are so so cute ."
www.foxnews.com/story/0,29...592,00.html
Tapan
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Re: Astrology?
Thu, December 27, 2007 - 6:46 PMThat does it. I'm going to go hang out with jellyfish. Will someone please pass the vinegar?
Hey, I wonder if the dinosaurs would have benefitted from any astrological "science." Maybe they could have gotten ready for the big wipe-out.
BTW, you guys stay on topic like an ADD child on crack. There is an "Astrology Is Stupid" tribe somewhere around here... -
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Re: Astrology?
Thu, December 27, 2007 - 6:55 PMDid somebody say "crack?" It goes great with my Ritilan.
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Re: Astrology?
Thu, December 27, 2007 - 7:24 PM>>>So if you have no trouble believing that tides are caused by the gravitational pull of the moon ? Why do you have trouble believing that the gravitational pull of other planetary bodies can affect the behaviour of the human nature ?
-->You conveniently left out two MAJOR details....
Yes ofcourse the moons gravity affects things here on earth.... But that isn't determined by or affected by the "things" date of birth....
What in the hell does my date of birth have to do with how mercury will affect me when it's in retrograde?
Second.... The detail in which these heavenly bodies are alleged to affect us are applied to such an enormous group of people, they cannot possibly be accurate, unless ofcourse you take the popular approach of being so vague they would apply to everyone no matter what...
It's all a bunch of crap. Apply the scientific method, study what passes that test, scrap what does not. -
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Re: Astrology?
Thu, December 27, 2007 - 8:54 PMWhat in the hell does my date of birth have to do with how mercury will affect me when it's in retrograde?
That just gives the planetary positions on the day of your birth.
The point A.
Point B is where you are going to be.
I am not an astrologer .
I am also not a big believer in it.
I am , however, also not an atheist and hence not prejudiced towards NOT believing things
more than believing things. I take the God delusion with the same grain of salt
that I take the communist atheist delusion. Of course you guys are going to NOT believe in
it. You are really good at it.
The point is that science today is witchcraft of tomorrow .
And if you are taking the science much more seriously than the
movement of the planets - which has been charted much more precisely
than any science has then I invite you to enjoy the lobotomy with the ritalin .
You do realize that lobotomies were also 'scientific ' once - right.
Also DDT.
Also electroshock theraphy.
Tapan -
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Re: Astrology?
Thu, December 27, 2007 - 9:49 PMSpeaking from a professional perspective, electroshock works, and science has done a great deal to refine the use of it.
Speaking of DDT, science invented it, and once faced with the awfulness of the product, Corporate America did take responsibility for it.
And speaking of brain alterations, I'm not sure I'd put the "trial and error" of medical practice on the same level as a cloying attachment to a scientifically debunked mode of thought. All medicine is, at some level, trial and error. All science is, at some level, trial and error. At some point, medicine said, "lobotomies are inhumane," and that's when they stopped using them as an acceptable mode of treatment. At some point, science said, "Astrology is crap." That's when they stopped teaching it in the classroom.
Some atheists may simply be good at rote disbelief. Some atheists are angry. I don't any of that should matter, if the object of the disbelief, the outdated belief structure (call it religion or zodiac) is in fact, bogus.
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Re: Astrology?
Fri, December 28, 2007 - 1:56 AMbut you are an idiot.
"I am not an astrologer .
I am also not a big believer in it.
I am , however, also not an atheist and hence not prejudiced towards NOT believing things
more than believing things. I take the God delusion with the same grain of salt
that I take the communist atheist delusion. Of course you guys are going to NOT believe in
it. You are really good at it. " -
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Re: Astrology?
Fri, December 28, 2007 - 10:48 AMName-calling does not constitute debate. -
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Re: Astrology?
Sun, December 30, 2007 - 11:37 PMdebate requires a basic respect for the relevance of an opponents opinion to furthering human knowledge, whether in its demonstration or refutation. astrology as an idea is so obviously absurd, and at the same time so obviously a result of the reverence with which any number of cultures viewed the awe inspiring sight of the night sky, and so variable in its many manifestations and thus so arbitrary, that it does not warrant our attention. as do many such ideas, such as consubstatiation or adam and eve as the origin of our species. these things do not warrant entry into a productive argument about the nature of human beings or the universe. they have nothing to do with an honest attempt to understand reality.
"Name-calling does not constitute debate." -
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Re: Astrology?
Sun, December 30, 2007 - 11:53 PMWhat are you talking about Matthew? -
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Re: Astrology?
Mon, December 31, 2007 - 12:11 AMastrology is stupid.
"What are you talking about Matthew?"
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Re: Astrology?
Tue, January 1, 2008 - 8:21 PM"debate requires a basic respect for the relevance of an opponents opinion to furthering human knowledge, whether in its demonstration or refutation."
Your basic premise is flawed; you don't have to respect somebody's else's opinion, but you do need to respect them, and that they may have a different point of view. And an elaborate justification of acting boorishly does not suddenly make you less boorish. -
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Re: Astrology?
Mon, January 7, 2008 - 7:18 PMthe attention of one's peers is something one earns through the clarity and significance of ones ideas. respecting other peoples right to have a different opinion does not necessarily imply that you think engaging with that opinion is worth doing.
and i never claimed not to be boorish.
i think astrology is one of the more idiotic ideas i've ever heard, and that anyone who defends it isn't to be taken seriously, or particularly respected (which is a totally different thing than respecting their right to have a different opinion). and being pleasant has never struck me as a very good reason to pretend that i don't.
"Your basic premise is flawed; you don't have to respect somebody's else's opinion, but you do need to respect them, and that they may have a different point of view. And an elaborate justification of acting boorishly does not suddenly make you less boorish." -
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Re: Astrology?
Mon, January 7, 2008 - 7:26 PMAstrology doens't make sense to be called a science, in fact has been invented by religions that don't even exist anymore.
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Re: Astrology?
Mon, January 7, 2008 - 7:50 PM"and i never claimed not to be boorish."
Then we at last agree on something!
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Re: Astrology?
Fri, December 28, 2007 - 11:25 AMMatthew,
Not only am I an idiot. I am a professional idiot.
Thanks for the acknowledgment.
www.coexistcomedy.com
Now go ahead and remove the jelly from the electroshocks
so that the rest of us don't have to listen to any of the emotional
manassas bred vomit .
Tapan -
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Re: Astrology?
Fri, December 28, 2007 - 11:47 AMYou had to bring jelly into it again.
Did you even read my post? -
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Re: Astrology?
Fri, December 28, 2007 - 6:20 PM"I am , however, also not an atheist and hence not prejudiced towards NOT believing things more than believing things"
That's a strange position to take, considering that there are more untrue things than true things. -
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Re: Astrology?
Fri, December 28, 2007 - 7:39 PM"I am , however, also not an atheist and hence not prejudiced towards NOT believing things more than believing things"
<<That's a strange position to take, considering that there are more untrue things than true things.>>
I for one, believe in the Celestial Teapot. This is an ancient teapot which was left behind by an ancient extraterrestrial culture, and is located somewhere between the planet Earth and Mars.
I also believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster and the Invisible Pink Unicorn.
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Re: Astrology?
Sat, December 29, 2007 - 7:50 AMIncidentally, removing jelly from the electodes won't induce death, if that's what you're intimating should happen to a fellow triber.
And just what is Manassas-bred vomit and what does it have to do with electricity or jelly?
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Re: Astrology?
Fri, December 28, 2007 - 10:51 PM>>>I am , however, also not an atheist and hence not prejudiced towards NOT believing things
more than believing things.
Dear Tapan, the fact that I am prejudiced against believing the moon is made of green cheeese, instead of believing it isn't doesn't make mean I'm unnecessarily prejudiced.
When someone makes an unsupported claim, only the ignorant jump on the band wagon and start throwing money into the offering plate...
The athiest demands to see the evidence first. Show me evidence that you can read the starts and tell me fortune, using the scientific method, and you'll make me a believer....
Until then, you can continue believing in any fairytale you like... I wont like you any less over it... As long as you're not evangelical about it I really don't care what religious beliefs you choose for yourself. :)
>>>I take the God delusion with the same grain of salt
that I take the communist atheist delusion.
--->Athiesm is not commmunism and has nothing to do with communism.
The fact that communists happen to be athiests has absolutely nothing to do with me being an athiest....
>>>The point is that science today is witchcraft of tomorrow .
And if you are taking the science much more seriously than the
movement of the planets - which has been charted much more precisely
than any science has then I invite you to enjoy the lobotomy with the ritalin .
--->Do you understand what science and the scientific method is? Judging from your description of science, it sounds like you really have no idea what it is.... -
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Re: Astrology?
Sat, December 29, 2007 - 7:55 AMIt doesn't appear that anyone read the article above I shared on this so I'm posting a bit of it here.
"Astronomical or astrotheological knowledge reaches back to the dawn of humanity, appearing widespread and becoming highly developed over a period of millennia. In its entry on "Astrology," the Catholic Encyclopedia describes the development of this archaic science in the ancient world:
"The history of astrology is an important part of the history of the development of civilization, it goes back to the early days of the human race…. Astrology was…the foster-sister of astronomy, the science of the investigation of the heavens…. According to the belief of the early civilized races of the East, the stars were the source and at the same time the heralds of everything that happened, and the right to study the "godlike science" of astrology was a privilege of the priesthood. This was the case in Mesopotamia and Egypt, the oldest centres of civilization known to us in the East. The most ancient dwellers on the Euphrates, the Akkado-Sumerians, were believers in judicial astrology, which was closely interwoven with their worship of the stars. The same is true of their successors, the Babylonians and Assyrians, who were the chief exponents of astrology in antiquity…. The Assyro-Babylonian priests (Chaldeans) were the professional astrologers of classical antiquity. In its origin Chaldaic astrology also goes back to the worship of stars; this is proved by the religious symbolism of the most ancient cuneiform texts of the zodiac. The oldest astrological document extant is the work called "Namar-Beli" (Illumination of Bel) composed for King Sargon I (end of the third millennium B.C.) and contained in the cuneiform library of King Asurbanipal (668-626 B.C.)…. Even in the time of Chaldean, which should be called Assyrian, astrology, the five planets, together with the sun and moon, were divided according to their character and their position in the zodiac as well as according to their position in the twelve houses. As star of the sun, Saturn was the great planet and ruler of the heavens…. The Egyptians and Hindus were as zealous astrologers as the nations on the Euphrates and Tigris. The dependence of the early Egyptian star (sun) worship (the basis of the worship of Osiris) upon early Chaldaic influences belongs to the still unsettled question of the origin of early Egyptian civilization."
Thus, astrology - a "godlike science" - dates back thousands of years and has been an important part of human civilization. According to mainstream archaeology, the oldest extant text specifically addressing "astrology" dates from the 3rd millennium BCE; yet, the astrological religion or astrotheology is recorded abundantly in Indian, Egyptian and Sumerian sacred literature as well, some of which represents traditions much older than the third millennium. Also, as noted, megalithic ruins push astronomical knowledge back at least 6,000 to 6,500 years ago, while ancient mariners reveal such knowledge dating to 30,000 or more years ago.... (29-30)"
www.truthbeknown.com/astrotheology.html
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Re: Astrology?
Sat, December 29, 2007 - 9:29 AMI saw nothing about the scientific method there.
Astronomy is science... Astrology (as commonly practiced today in any major newspaper)is not.
Any atronomer can show you his telescope and teach you how to make the same observations he has so that you can apply the scientific method.
Please tell me how you can use the scientific method to recreate these observations...
astrology.yahoo.com/astrolog...ew/cancer
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Re: Astrology?
Sat, December 29, 2007 - 10:08 AMThe fact that communists happen to be athiests has absolutely nothing to do with me being an athiest.... ----BINGO !!!!
Now you refute yourself from it and its easy for you to refute pretty much anything as the belief system you support is a negative.
You can pretty much say that about ANYTHING right ?
The fact that kittens happen to be cute and athiests has absolutely nothing to do with me being an athiest.
The fact that Stalin murdered 20 million has nothing to do with me being an athiest.
The fact that ..........has nothing to do with me being an athiest.
When someone makes an unsupported claim, only the ignorant jump on the band wagon and start throwing money into the offering plate... - And what might that support be. For you its science which is proven to be incomplete and if you brought back the most brilliant scientists of just 100 years back - you would call them fools for just proclaiming their theories. But with this argument I would be beating a dead horse so lets get past it shall we.
When someone makes an unsupported claim, only the ignorant jump on the band wagon and start throwing money into the offering plate...
And what might that offering plate be ? THe killing fields of Germany or killing fields of Russia. Belief in anything is always personal. You probably believe that you are a slightly better driver than the guy who cut you off or you are a slightly better person that the moron who believes in God but its a personal belief.
I believe in this guy - Jagjit Uppal. (www.jagjituppal.com ).
How about this experiment ?
I bought the weekly Virgo horoscope from him for the year 2008.
I will share it with the people that are interested in the continued experiment.
But here is the Dec 2007 that I got in Jan 2007 . He gives the whole year.
Check out the place where he says An elders ill health etc.
At the time of that writing we had no idea that my mom is going to be living with us as
her visa was rejected thrice at that point. Not only did she got the visa she is living with
us now - a GREAT joy for us. A week after she came she had a fall and fractured her shoulder.
Now I know you guys being the sceptics will say that it could be ANY elder and during the holidays
this generally happens but this guy writes from India and it isn't any holiday time there.
Here is what I suggest - I will send out the 2008 Virgo Horoscope to all that are interested.
Weekly - we will revive this thread (probably making this the MOST revived thread on tribe)
and compare and see if things went the way he said or not. It costs 7$ to buy the horoscope
and I have the Virgo one already. I am putting my money where my mouth is .
And here is my challenge to Goat and Mick.
You put down the money to get your horoscopes .
We start a spreadsheet and see what percentage of his predictions are true.
If its more than 50% - I am right and you give me 20$.(Total 40$).
If its less than 50% - then you are right and I give you each 20$
So what do you say peeps ? Is this scientific enough for you ?
Dec 2007
This is the month when you will once again bring about radical changes in your work set-up. In fact, you will be compelled to seek alternative job or work that is certainly to your advantage. Having achieved stability in your profession and with quite a sound financial situation, other areas of activity will hold your attention this month. Also a change of residence seems to occupy your mind. You will either renovate your home completely, or some of you may plan to move into a new accommodation. Others may buy a piece of land to construct their own house later. The best dates for signing fresh agreements or for any auspicious work are 5, 6, 10, 20 and 21. Home and family life is happy. However, an elder’s ill health may cause anxiety around the last week of this month. Whatever is the problem, things will get sorted out before the year-end and you will manage to get into the mood for celebration of the coming festivities.
2 – 8
The successful completion of your current assignment will undoubtedly bring huge monetary gains, plus several new works offers. Independent entrepreneurs will travel overseas to scan new areas of business interest. Those contemplating to set up business in catering, interior designing travel and tourism will have a good opportunity to get started. Those of you who are associated with information technology or software engineering, will receive a lucrative job offer or to work on contract. You must negotiate the deal careful for you are certain to benefit in the long run. Hectic work schedule may keep you away from home and family. You need to balance your work life and personal relationship for both are equally important. Some of you may have neglected your home and family life for too long creating a wedge between your loved ones and yourself.
9 – 15
Those of you, who are looking for an office premise or a shop, will find a suitable place. Agency and commission work proves profitable more due the efforts of a colleague. Those dealing in consumer products will be expanding their existing business. An opportunity exists to start export business. Those of you contemplating to immigrate to a foreign country will receive the necessary clearance. Housewives will begin to feel tied down to routine chores. All their effort to start some work or business is thwarted either by their husbands or their family. This could cramp your life style. A feeling of remorse and loneliness could overtake you and you feel listless and tired for no reason. Some of you complain of a pain in the back or in shoulders. Try to involve yourself in some physically strenuous work. You desperately need some activity to keep fit.
16 – 22
A sudden travel plan may take you towards south or southeast. Some of you may travel overseas of a special assignment. Some of you may travel abroad to scan opportunities for job or business. It will be a fruitful journey. Some of you will start a new work or open a branch office in another city. Those seeking employment overseas will get favorable offers this week. Students will join training classes in a preparation for a competitive exam. A study or training program is on the curriculum for most of you. Students preparing for tests for the enrolment to a foreign university will succeed in their exams. A younger relative who lives away from you will visit you for a few days. Those of you, who have married recently, will get the good news of a new arrival. Love life is quite exciting.
23 – 29
You have another fortunate week ahead of you. Do all that you can to cash in on the lucky breaks coming your way? Distant affairs can be made more profitable with the co-operation of close associates. The financial propositions that are put to you are apt to be more profitable and could lead to increase in earnings. Fresh agreements will be easier to negotiate on favorable terms and conditions. The future security for you and your loved ones is guaranteed. Students desirous of studying overseas should prepare for they're written tests. They are likely to set out on their journey soon. Love life remains joyful.
30 JANUARY 5, 2008
There may be sudden plan for journey taking you towards south or Southeast. If traveling on work, it is sure to prove fruitful. A close relative is likely to meet you seeking your help. It may be to do with getting a job for someone. If owning a piece of land or property that is not being used by you, now is the time to sell it off. You will receive a good offer. Those of you working in hotels, restaurants, advertising, or in news media, will make great strides in your career. Home and family affairs dominate the scene towards the weekend. A younger relative may have some problem, which you may be required to solve. You could also be playing the role of a mediator trying to patch up differences between married couples. Your mate will strongly oppose your getting involved in other peoples’ problem. It is not unlikely that in consoling others you may yourself get involved in a secret liaison. Those who are soon to settle down in matrimony should stay away from romantic temptations. You need to relax and enjoying the forthcoming festivities, more so after having done well in your work and business.
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Re: Astrology?
Sat, December 29, 2007 - 11:49 AMMick "Your point would be?"
Goat "Astronomy is science... Astrology (as commonly practiced today in any major newspaper)is not. "
- Not sure who & what exactly these are directed at here but, if they are directed at my last post, it explains why folks didn't understand my point I tried to make clear earlier on in this thread that todays astrology is a such corrupt version of what the ancients were doing that if they were here now, they'd be offended by what is considered "astrology" today.
Again, "astrology today is a misuse and abuse of the astrology of the ancients...Todays astrology is a dumbed down version to rip people off."
Ancient "astrology" contained the science of astronomy and religious belief on this natural phenomena known as astrotheology as well as mythology. Today, this has been split up into the science of astronomy, astrotheology, mythology and a corrupted form of astrology. Since this thread is about "astrology" etc, I thought folks here would want to know.
The excerpt I shared summed it up
www.truthbeknown.com/astrotheology.html
"Zeitgeist" part 1 VIDEO starts @ 9:45-35
www.zeitgeistmovie.com
"The Companion Guide to ZEITGEIST Part 1" E-Book
www.stellarhousepublishing.com/ze...tml
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Re: Astrology?
Sat, December 29, 2007 - 1:14 PMSpeaking of beliefs which may quickly become outdated, I'm now more likely to believe Tapan is an idiot. -
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Re: Astrology?
Sat, December 29, 2007 - 2:45 PM"I'm now more likely to believe Tapan is an idiot."
Reproducibility is certainly a key foundation of the scientific method.
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Re: Astrology?
Sat, December 29, 2007 - 5:22 PMCome on you pussy ! Put your money where your mouth is !!
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Re: Astrology?
Sat, December 29, 2007 - 11:00 PMLOL! And just what is that supposed to mean? -
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Re: Astrology?
Sun, December 30, 2007 - 2:21 PMI have to admit, I don't understand what this means either.
Are we taking bets to see whether God exists or not, when the great unveiling happens and all doubt is removed forever? -
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Now taking bets, loser buys breakfast at Milliway's, the restaurant at the end of the Universe.
Sun, December 30, 2007 - 5:13 PMI'll put $20 down to say that God doesn't exist. I'm not sure what the odds are, twenty to one in favor? Twenty to one against? The higher the odds, the more money you would make from the bet.
Who wants to put money down to say that God exists?
Who wants to put money down to say that God doesn't exist?
Also, when will the great unveiling of the secrets of the cosmos begin so we can all find out if we win or lose on the bet? -
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Waah, Ricky!
Sun, December 30, 2007 - 5:33 PMAs far as funny Pinko Commie Atheist comedians goes, there is always America's most lovable red-head, Lucille Ball.
It seems that Lucille Ball voted Communist in 1936 at the insistence of her grandfather, a railroad worker who idolized Eugene Debs.
iws.ccccd.edu/kwilkison/O...edscare.html
"Waah, Ricky!" -
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Re: Waah, Ricky!
Mon, January 7, 2008 - 10:50 AMYes But Ms.Ball is with God right now !!
If you really wanted to quote Atheist comedians you could go for Janeane Garofalo - no wait - she is an atheist - just not funny anymore.
Pretty much Harland Williams and Eddie Izzard who are two of the funniest comics working today is your best bet. Maybe Patton Oswalt but my personal talks with him suggest that he is wavering at best.
Tapandy
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Lucille Ball is in Heaven right now, throwing pies into God's face.
Mon, January 7, 2008 - 10:25 PM<<Yes But Ms.Ball is with God right now !!
If you really wanted to quote Atheist comedians you could go for Janeane Garofalo - no wait - she is an atheist - just not funny anymore.
Pretty much Harland Williams and Eddie Izzard who are two of the funniest comics working today is your best bet. Maybe Patton Oswalt but my personal talks with him suggest that he is wavering at best.
Tapandy >>
Ahh, so the Atheist Lucille Ball is in heaven with God right now?
Good to know! That kind of makes the whole 'Pascal's wager' thing a sure bet, doesn't it? Hey everyone! No need to worry about going to hell if you don't believe in God anymore! Lucille Ball is an Atheist and apparently Tapandy has proof of this. He saw Lucille Ball in Heaven on his last hashish-induced trip to the great beyond, so evidently It doesn't really matter whether you believe in God or not. You go to heaven (or you don't), regardless of your belief. Makes me wonder why religion exists at all, except as some kind of social Fan club.
As far as comedians go, whether they are funny or not is pretty much a matter of personal taste don't you think? I haven't heard of any of these names that you have mentioned to me, probably because none of them are very funny at all.
Personally I find this comedian pretty funny.
www.youtube.com/watch
I don't find you funny at all Tapandy. You have not demonstrated on iota of wit or humor to us at all. Allen is much funnier than you are. Personally I think you are just an obnoxious troll, who is about as funny as a Candiru fish.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candir%C3%BA
As far as taking this discussion about Astrology to the 'Crossroads of Religion' tribe, why don't you just do it yourself? You can cut and paste like the rest of us.
What do you expect to happen in the Xroads of religion? Do you expect us all to be somehow stunned into silence by the council of great minds assembled there? Are you expecting us to start abandoning scientific and philosophical reasoning as we start stammering in awe at the irrefutable logic of a chain smoking gypsy lady with bingo fingernails who tells us about the undeniable fortune telling miracles of Astrology? Are you expecting our wills to bend beneath the sheer weight and magnitude of endless biblical quotes taken out of context?
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Re: Lucille Ball is in Heaven right now, throwing pies into God's face.
Tue, January 8, 2008 - 10:13 AMJames,
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
Tapandy
P.S. Pascal wasn't an atheist you can't quote him !!
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Re: Astrology?
Wed, January 2, 2008 - 9:02 AMWELL, basically it is on the lines as religion~BUNK! MADE UP ideas to make us feel better, or worse~ if ur catholic!
FOLLOW ur heart!
I think that when someone says, "god spoke to them", They are really saying "I think"
"god" speaks to me ALOT! it just depends on our beliefs!~ I GUESS?
I have time on my hands! If I believed in god, we are constantly in conversation!
I choose to call it "spirit" OR higher power!
I have bad feelings about "god" -
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Re: Astrology?
Mon, January 7, 2008 - 10:51 AMHow about putting this discussion up in the Crossroads of Religion tribe ? Out of the safe zone of your atheist manifesto ? Anyone up for the challenge ?
Tapandy -
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Re: Astrology?
Mon, January 7, 2008 - 11:38 AMI'm yer huckleberry. Who's joining me over there?
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Re: Astrology?
Mon, January 7, 2008 - 11:40 AMAnd with what or how, specifically, shall we start the thread? -
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Re: Astrology?
Mon, January 7, 2008 - 3:50 PMThe same way you started it here.
Does anyone here believe in Astrology ?
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Re: Astrology?
Mon, January 7, 2008 - 4:03 PMTapan, you didn't answer my prior question(s). -
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Re: Astrology?
Tue, January 8, 2008 - 10:18 AMWhich one Mick ? I don't go through all of the posts on here.
I take only peripheral interest in riling up atheists - successfully I might add if James' response is to be taken. I really don't care if you believe in God or not . Not all of us are the converting types. But it is interesting to see one guy with an opposing viewpoint on your tirbe and you all become a mob with a religious fervour. No wonder both Stalin and Hitler were successful !!
Tapandy
P.S. How do you atheists know electricity exists ? -
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Re: Astrology?
Tue, January 8, 2008 - 10:36 AMThe more of your colors we see, the more I am inclined to believe you fly the idiot flag. -
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Re: Astrology?
Tue, January 8, 2008 - 1:05 PMAnd the atheist racism comes out.
Oh I am a colored guy now .
Out of curiosity - how many of you guys are not caucasian ?
As a percentage - How many of you guys are minorities ?
Is Atheism a luxury only afforded to the affluent white majority ?
Of the 788 members of this tribe - how many of you guys are
minorities ? And I mean racial minority - not religious .
Tapandy -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Astrology?
Tue, January 8, 2008 - 1:37 PMNow you have to bring race into it. And out of sheer stupidity at that.
When you see one's "colors," it has nothing to do with race, you dolt. -
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Re: Astrology?
Tue, January 8, 2008 - 2:00 PMAnd now who is not answering questions whiteboy ?
I will repeat the question again --
Out of curiosity - how many of you guys are not caucasian ?
As a percentage - How many of you guys are minorities ?
Is Atheism a luxury only afforded to the affluent white majority ?
Of the 788 members of this tribe - how many of you guys are
minorities ? And I mean racial minority - not religious .
Tapandy -
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Re: Astrology?
Tue, January 8, 2008 - 2:19 PMWhy do you assume I'm white, O ignoramus? -
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Re: Astrology?
Tue, January 8, 2008 - 2:25 PMBecause your Flickr pictures show an ugly white guy on it.
Its either that or you are a coward not to put any pictures of yourself
on your tribe profile - which makes you a sock - which actually is worse
than you being an atheist !
Once again
Are you putting this question on the Crossroads of Religions or not ?
And once again
Out of curiosity - how many of you guys are not caucasian ?
As a percentage - How many of you guys are minorities ?
Is Atheism a luxury only afforded to the affluent white majority ?
Of the 788 members of this tribe - how many of you guys are
minorities ? And I mean racial minority - not religious .
Its a simple question and it stings you to admit to yourself
that no matter how much street and a common man you consider
yourself you are an elitist basking in the luxury of your color
and trustfunds . Enjoy the caviar and the hole in your soul !
Tapandy -
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Re: Astrology?
Tue, January 8, 2008 - 2:56 PMI have pictures of myself available to my friends. The ugly white guy? There are no ugly white guys on my flickr pages (thank you for looking). Only an ugly male of Indian descent behind the camera.
There was a time Tapan, when I criticised another fellow for making you the target of name calling. Then I recanted my statement, and I'll stand by that decision as you continue to show yourself as being nothing more than a common troll.
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Re: Astrology?
Tue, January 8, 2008 - 3:15 PMA sock calling someone a troll.
Come on Mick you can do better than that .
And an Indian called Mick ? You really
want me to believe that ? Man , photoshop is
GREAT!!!
I pose a question to your belief system and
I get called names, shouted at, my profession
beguiled etc etc etc. All within a 98 thread response.
One might call it a witch hunt. You guys are no better
than the faiths that you look down on. Shame on you.
And you may be brown skinned but at the end of the day
you are just a coconut.
Now go back and enjoy the caviar you trustfund baby !!
Glad your grandpa made money and left it for you
(which by the way has In God We Trus written on it -
do you spend it ? You shouldn't. Come on be faithful
to your lack of belief.)
Put the question on the Crossroads of Religion tribe
if you are not a coward behind the barrel of the photoshopped
rifle you have you pussy !!
And once again
how many of you guys are not caucasian ?
As a percentage - How many of you guys are minorities ?
Is Atheism a luxury only afforded to the affluent white majority ?
Of the 788 members of this tribe - how many of you guys are
minorities ? And I mean racial minority - not religious
Tapandy -
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Re: Astrology?
Tue, January 8, 2008 - 7:02 PMonly if the only criteria you use is playing nice.
"You guys are no better
than the faiths that you look down on." -
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Re: Astrology?
Tue, January 8, 2008 - 7:04 PMhow exactly is this relevant? if it were true, what would that have to do with anything?
and yes, affluence does have something to do with having the luxury to question beliefs being forced on you. the more dependent you are on a social structure that tells you what to believe in exchange for acceptance and economic and social support the less likely you are to question what's being shoved down your throat. and yes, race has something to do with affluence. so what?
"And once again
how many of you guys are not caucasian ?
As a percentage - How many of you guys are minorities ?
Is Atheism a luxury only afforded to the affluent white majority ?
Of the 788 members of this tribe - how many of you guys are
minorities ? And I mean racial minority - not religious " -
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I second that emotion.
Tue, January 8, 2008 - 8:24 PMI think we should start a motion to ban this Tapandy troll.
For one thing, absolutely nothing at all he has said has any relevance to the topic of this thread. He has hijacked this thread in order to stand on his own soapbox, which is merely expressing his extreme hatred, sense of superiority, and to project his personal prejudices upon us. (i.e. assuming that we must all be upper middle class WASPS is prejudicial.). In no way has he expressed either a desire, or a capacity for rational or civilized discussion. He is merely here to insult and jeer at us all, and challenge us to a 'fight' on the Crossroads of religion tribe.
Of all the trolls we have had in this tribe, Tapandy seems to be the worst so far. He is like an adolescent bully merely trying to drown us out by making lots of noise. 'Young Earth' Dan was not as bad as this boorish ass has proven himself to be. Tapandy needs to be removed.
Does anyone second this motion?
Perhaps we should move this to another thread.
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Re: Astrology?
Tue, January 8, 2008 - 9:58 PMMatthew, you may be a boor, but you're right when you say that
TAPAN IS AN IDIOT.
And for the record, I'm not trying to debate him -- this is pure ad hominem, baby.
Ban this bitch. He's pure Godwin's-Law-invoking, race-baiting, nonsense-spewing trollification. -
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Re: Astrology?
Wed, January 9, 2008 - 3:37 PMAwwww ! Poor Allen needs a hug ???
I double dare you to ban me . At the end of the
day - this is the only thread that has gotten any
opposing viewpoint on this tribe. I believe 88 is
the most responses you have gotten.
Come on fuckers - the Bible dosen't spice up
till the snake shows up !
You can continue your self congratulatory circle jerk
if you want but without me you guys are pretty much
masturbating !
And once again I ask :--
how many of you guys are not caucasian ?
As a percentage - How many of you guys are minorities ?
Is Atheism a luxury only afforded to the affluent white majority ?
Of the 788 members of this tribe - how many of you guys are
minorities ? And I mean racial minority - not religious "
I stand by the questions.
Now to respond to Matthew's answer --
and yes, affluence does have something to do with having the luxury to question beliefs being forced on you.
NOW you are talking. I will say that Atheism is a luxury afforded by a few well educated rich white trustfund babies who really don't understand what 95% of the country go through on a daily basis. They NEED religion or God. And to philosophically disagree with them is one thing but to laugh at them for being ignorant because they still believe in something that has been installed in them since they were a child is cruel ! Extremely cruel !! And it is this cruelty which takes the form of cold sanitized scientific measuring tables and gives power to those like Stalin or Mao.
the more dependent you are on a social structure that tells you what to believe in exchange for acceptance and economic and social support the less likely you are to question what's being shoved down your throat.
Correct. However , to call someone who does not accept your viewpoint (as I did on this tribe) an idiot or trying to ban them would be fascism - digital fascism at best ! Either way I got a good insight into Atheist behaviour .
and yes, race has something to do with affluence. so what?
And that 'So what' is the reason why minorities suffer - whether it be racial or religious !!
Tapandy
P.S. There is a God ! -
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Re: Astrology?
Wed, January 9, 2008 - 3:47 PMso which is it? is it true or it is necessary? is it necessary or is it nice?
"They NEED religion or God. "
"And it is this cruelty which takes the form of cold sanitized scientific measuring"
"There is a God !"
and btw, "religious minorities"? WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING?
"And that 'So what' is the reason why minorities suffer - whether it be racial or religious !! "
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Re: Astrology?
Wed, January 9, 2008 - 5:11 PM"They NEED religion or God. And to philosophically disagree with them is one thing but to laugh at them for being ignorant because they still believe in something that has been installed in them since they were a child is cruel ! Extremely cruel !! And it is this cruelty which takes the form of cold sanitized scientific measuring tables and gives power to those like Stalin or Mao."
What a load of sophomoric horseshit.
Your argument is essentially that peoples' lives are so miserable that they should turn to a societally accepted form of delusion-inducing brainwashing to forget or ignore their problems. Talk about cruelty and Stalinism! This is exactly why religion fails to better the lot of most of the third world. It's only when people finally drop the church-sponsored crack pipe of religion that they finally wake up and realize what shit they're swimming in, and that they need to change it. If anything, the church perpetuates racism and poverty by telling people to accept that wherever they are is "God's will," rather than encouraging them to fight for something better. For every Bishop Tutu there are 10,000 Falwells, Torquemadas, and Robertsons who oppose reason, sanity, and basic human rights in favor of hate-filled demagoguery.
Your attempt to get us to discuss race is a red herring, and has nothing to do with anything worth discussing. You need banning because you lack respect for our viewpoints and are simply stirring shit, not because you want to actually debate us. And to think I tried to defend your right to air your viewpoint -- you've since repeatedly proven that it was wasted effort. I've never called for banning any of the other self-righteous twats who've fouled our air, because at least they evinced some rudimentary civility which you lack.
Real digital fascism is when some loud-mouthed prick -- you, in this case -- tries to dominate discussion by sheer volume and obnoxiousness of postings. -
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Re: Astrology?
Wed, January 9, 2008 - 5:58 PMFirst he tells us that we don't deserve to even have or spend money, just because some money happens to have 'In God we trust' written on it. ('In God we trust, all others cash only please.')
Then he tells us in true Gestapo fashion that for some reason we are 'not allowed' (according to his jack-booted authority) to even *mention* the name of Pascal, as in referring to 'Pascal's Wager' which this ignorant racist dimwit has obviously proven he is completely clueless about.
Then he says this:
<<how many of you guys are not caucasian ?
As a percentage - How many of you guys are minorities ?
Is Atheism a luxury only afforded to the affluent white majority ?
Of the 788 members of this tribe - how many of you guys are
minorities ? And I mean racial minority - not religious " >>
In essence what Tapan is saying is this.
"Hello, I hate you all. You don't deserve money and you don't deserve to quote from others without my authority. Now that I have told you all how much I despise you, I insist you tell me how many of you are 'minorities'. RACIAL minorites! Now I am asking again, who amongst you is a RACIAL minority? Who are the 'non-whites' from amongst you?"
Why does he ask? Why is he looking for racial minorities with the slobbering zeal of a Nazi Stormtrooper? Because Tapan is an ignorant, bigoted, prejudicist racist scumbag! He wants to know how many of us are RACIAL minorities because RACE is the yardstick by which he judges people. If this was not so, then why would he bother to ask? He wants to see who among us measures up to his standards based on RACIAL qualifications. If you belong to a certain race, then you pass Tapan's test. If you are part of another certain 'race' on the other hand, you fail!
If 'race' were not an issue for Tapan, he would never have brought it up.
Consider this, how many of the other Christian/ Religion trolls that we have let in here have ever, ever brought up the question of race? None, and why should they? The matter of 'race' is hardly important when it comes to the discussion of religion.
Except of course to guys such as these. www.truechristian.com/
By the way, those guys mentioned above aren't Atheists, and they don't like Atheists either.
Why should a person's race matter at all, except of course to a racist?
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Re: Astrology?
Wed, January 9, 2008 - 11:28 PM<<And to think I tried to defend your right to air your viewpoint -- you've since repeatedly proven that it was wasted effort. >>
I wouldn't say that Allen. I think it was highly commendable for you to do so. Freedom of speech is extremely important, even more so when someone is saying something that you don't agree with. Freedom of speech for people to say only the things that you like or agree with is the kind of freedoms of speech that Hitler and Stalin supported.
Voltaire (the Atheist) once said "I do not agree with your point of view, Sir. But I shall defend to the death your right to say it."
In this instance, I think a crazy wino standing on a soapbox and screaming that the Apocalypse is coming and everyone will die soon is certainly expressing his point of view, and he is entitled to do so. Of course, there are more appropriate venues and a procedure for doing so, and if the wino wanted to get his message across he would be wise to heed these. For one thing, no one ever listens to a shouting, angry man who insults everyone except to heed him as a potential safety threat. This makes the wino more angry and he starts to yell louder. At the point when the crazy wino on the soap box actually starts offending people and behaving in an aggressive manner however, it is time to call the Police or security and have him promptly removed from the premisis.
Ideally, everyone should be at least polite enough to listen and respond. Even if people aren't intelligent enough to compose and articulate themselves effectively, everyone has the capacity to be polite. There have been other religious trolls on this tribe have been able to articulate themselves politely, even if their viewpoint was coming from way off in left field (or right wing as the case may be).
The difference here is that Tapany isn't here to discuss his viewpoint or anyone's viewpoint at all. He is clearly venting out his aggressions and his vitriol at ALL of us. He isn't 'saying' anything, he isn't discussing anything. All he is doing is shouting at us and making pre-determined judgments (pre-judgements = prejudices) about *all of us* as a whole, and demanding we all comply with his outrageous demands.
THAT is NOT free speech. THAT is being an obnoxious bully, and this behavior cannot be tolerated. Tapany is about as concerned about free speech as a bank robber or a terrorist is. -
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Tapan the Racist
Thu, January 10, 2008 - 12:39 AMTake a look at the 'Stand up comedy' he does, and determine for yourself whether or not Tapan Trivedi is an obnoxious, racist scum.
His solution to 'The Mexican Problem'.
ca.video.yahoo.com/video/play
This charming skit is called 'Niggers and Sand Niggers'
www.indiancomedian.com/Niggerniggers.mp3
Here is a 'comedy skit' about why Asians are called 'Chinks'
www.youtube.com/watch
Everything which he says in these 'comedy skits' is directed towards promoting racial stereotypes. A caucasian of European ancestry could not say the things Tapan says on stage without being considered a racist. Tapan knows this, so uses his own Indian ancestry as a smoke screen to say the things that white racists really want to say, but can't. This is like the version of the Anti-Semite who claims that it's okay if he says bad things about Jews, because 'he is half jewish himself.' -
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Re: Tapan the Racist
Thu, January 10, 2008 - 7:32 AMDear James,
If you aren't smart enough to understand Tapan, you shouldn't watch his comedy.
Do you get the Fox news reference?
NO. Because you are stupid.
I don't even think you are a real atheist, because everyone knows only smart people are atheist. Please return to your mormon roots.
xoox
eMerly -
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Re: Tapan the Racist
Thu, January 10, 2008 - 7:35 AMOh, please. An alt. How original.
How droll. -
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Re: Tapan the Racist
Thu, January 10, 2008 - 8:15 AMAlready resorting to Alts, and he hasn't even been removed by the TOU guy yet. -
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Re: Tapan the Racist
Thu, January 10, 2008 - 11:52 AMDear Dumbass
YOU went to www.coexistcomedy.com and posted your drivel (which was unedited, unreadable and made no sense).
If you read any of the comments on the page you would have seen the "alt." eMerly. The "alt." that has commented months before about how much I liked seeing my brother Keith the Atheist and all the other religious fucks perform in SF and Sacto.
You don't understand the meaning of coexist, obviously, and must not have a sense of humor at all, because even if you were really stupid, you would be able to grasp one or two of Tapan's funnies, no matter what your IQ level.
If Tapan really was any of the things you are saying, he probably wouldn't be performing in a COMEDY troupe with four other people of different races/sexes/religions. They all make fun of themselves and each other onstage and off. That's the brilliancy of the whole thing. They can all LAUGH at each other and Coexist. -
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Re: Tapan the Racist
Thu, January 10, 2008 - 12:02 PMWhy are you wasting your time on us?
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Re: Tapan the Racist
Thu, January 10, 2008 - 1:02 PMdoesn't mean they aren't deluded.
"If Tapan really was any of the things you are saying, he probably wouldn't be performing in a COMEDY troupe with four other people of different races/sexes/religions. They all make fun of themselves and each other onstage and off. That's the brilliancy of the whole thing. They can all LAUGH at each other and Coexist."
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Re: Tapan the Racist
Thu, January 10, 2008 - 11:16 PM<<If Tapan really was any of the things you are saying, he probably wouldn't be performing in a COMEDY troupe with four other people of different races/sexes/religions. They all make fun of themselves and each other onstage and off. That's the brilliancy of the whole thing. They can all LAUGH at each other and Coexist.>>
Then why can't you co-exist with us?
What's your beef?
Why are you wasting your time here?
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Re: Astrology?
Wed, January 9, 2008 - 3:43 PMwhy thank you allen!
"Matthew, you may be a boor, but you're right when you say that "
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Re: Astrology?
Tue, January 8, 2008 - 8:26 PMTapan, now you're just pathetic.
Hey, didn't I interview you when you came through Atlanta? Did you ever see the writeup in _Khabar_?
It was a good interview, well recieved by readers. If anyone wants to see it, I'll put it up somewhere.
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Re: Astrology?
Tue, January 8, 2008 - 2:20 PMPlus, your questions will not yeild any significant data related to the study of atheism on the whole, whether nationally or internationally. Tribe is not a representative sampling of anything.
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Re: Astrology?
Tue, January 8, 2008 - 2:22 PMAnd for the record, Tapan brought the question of race to this thread. -
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Re: Astrology?
Wed, January 9, 2008 - 3:58 PMWait until I tell _Khabar_ magazine who I met online. -
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Re: Astrology?
Wed, January 9, 2008 - 4:03 PMAnd Trivedi, I've got to ask:
Are you modeling behavior your wife and child would be proud of?
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Re: Astrology?
Wed, January 9, 2008 - 4:08 PMMickey,
Do you have a wife and a child ?
How would we know ? No pictures
on tribe. No information.
Sock sock sock !!!
Tapandy
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Re: Astrology?
Wed, January 9, 2008 - 4:03 PMMickey,
I never saw the Khabar interview .
What is this an atheist retaliation ?
What is this fifth grade ?
Go ahead tell Khabar magazine.
Also tell your mom, and dad
and granny. They go suck on the
caviar lollipop .
Tapandy
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Re: Astrology?
Wed, January 9, 2008 - 4:05 PMNow you're just proving everybody's point about you.
And I'm laughing, but not because you've got any great wit. -
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Re: Astrology?
Wed, January 9, 2008 - 10:37 PMI find it pathetic when somebody like Tapan or Josh, knowingly joins a tribe that is contrary to their beliefs to show that, "gee I can tell you something that is wrong with your beliefs." and expect us to go along with it. -
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Re: Astrology?
Wed, January 9, 2008 - 11:03 PM<<I find it pathetic when somebody like Tapan or Josh, knowingly joins a tribe that is contrary to their beliefs to show that, "gee I can tell you something that is wrong with your beliefs." and expect us to go along with it.>>
True, it is pathetic. They are trolls. Their only reason for coming onto Tribes like these is to stir shit up. However, most Trolls are not as bad as Tapan. This guy Tapan is just an obnoxious racist bigot who has come here to disseminate his ignorance and prejudices about other people. He is a coward that hides behind a keyboard in order to spew forth his vitriol at the objects of his hatred, apparently us. He couldn't say stuff like he says on Tribe in his real life without getting punched out or dragged away by the Police, so he comes here. Expressing his true feelings towards 'certain groups' of other people publically would also end Tapan's career as a comic just as swiftly and as surely as it did for Micheal Richards. The difference being that Micheal Richards had a name once, and Micheal Richards was actually funny once.
You can take the boy out of the trash, but you can't take the trash out of the boy. Just as it happened to Micheal Richards, Tapan can't hide the racist bigotry he feels and prejudiced hatred in his mind forever. Sooner or later, Tapan is going to slip up and open up his racist mouth and expose his true self in public, just as he has already exposed his true, hidden feelings on this tribe right now. He might even do it on stage in response to a heckler. Talk about a flash in the pan! Tapan's career as a comedian will be over before it even began. Sad really. No sympathy for him though. -
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Re: Astrology?
Thu, January 10, 2008 - 6:52 AMIt takea a profoundly unhappy man to make others unhappy. -
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Re: Astrology?
Thu, January 10, 2008 - 11:36 AMAnd I do hope he gets the help he needs to overcome his self-consuming hostility. Perhaps he's got a drinking problem?
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Re: Astrology?
Sat, January 12, 2008 - 11:17 AMTapan, if you have a problem with white people, take it somewhere else.... I don't think any of us in this tribe are interested in that kind of ignorance.
I have little tolerenace for ignorance in general, but that's the worse kind.
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Re: Astrology?
Sat, January 12, 2008 - 7:39 PMI don't believe any of it!
However, I do find it entertaining, and I earn a small part of my living providing characters at events. Some of the characters are "fortune tellers" of various types (tarot, palm reading, crystal ball, hydromancy, etc.). At these events a lot of the guests who partake in the activities do so out of curiousity and for fun--many of them have never had their fortunes read. I'm sure there are some who believe in it though. -
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Re: Astrology?
Sun, January 13, 2008 - 9:41 PMI'll rephrase that last part...obviously there are some people who believe in it, but I think it is unlikely that they are atheists. -
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Re: Astrology?
Sun, January 13, 2008 - 9:45 PMI posted a little something in the "Full Enlightenment" tribe.
fullenlightenment.tribe.net/thre...19619
I really do not mean to be stirring up trouble there. I simply make a personally true statement. -
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Re: Astrology?
Mon, January 14, 2008 - 6:56 AM<<I really do not mean to be stirring up trouble there. I simply make a personally true statement.>>
Funny though how some people can't handle this. Making true statements that is, even if they are about one's own beliefs. -
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Re: Astrology?
Mon, January 14, 2008 - 7:16 AM< Funny though how some people can't handle this. Making true statements that is, even if they are about one's own beliefs. >
The trouble is, anyone could also make a "truthful" statement about their feelings on Jesus and the role he plays in their life.
Anyway, there's been no comment over there on the matter. I'm thinking about waiting a while and making the same comment in another religion oriented tribe. -
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Re: Astrology?
Mon, January 14, 2008 - 5:18 PM"I find it pathetic when somebody like Tapan or Josh, knowingly joins a tribe that
is contrary to their beliefs to show that, "gee I can tell you something that is
wrong with your beliefs." and expect us to go along with it" -- Ted.
Ted, if your stupid ass would have taken a look at the 'other' atheist tribes than
you would have come across this one -
atheistsonly.tribe.net/ - also created by Jon the founder of this tribe - which is for you guys.
The manifesto of that tribe states that
"A place for atheists to talk without defending their skepticism. If you're a theist,
you can talk to many of the same folks at nogod.tribe.net . "
So if you truly want people like me and Josh to NOT come here - you should get out of
here and to the atheistsonly tribe !! I am not at the wrong place. YOU ARE. Same goes
for Mickey and James and all the other stupidass idiots who don't see where they are
before pointing fingers . A BIG FUCK YOU for that !
*******************************************************************************************
Now for James - racist Jame's accusations
Take a look at the 'Stand up comedy' he does, and determine for yourself whether or not Tapan Trivedi is an obnoxious, racist scum.
You are quoting my bits to prove that I am a racist.
Dude you are a lot more stupid then I thought.
Did you see the audiences of these jokes ?
His solution to 'The Mexican Problem'.
ca.video.yahoo.com/video/play
Yeah ! This one - was taped at the Ice House in Pasadena in front
of a 90% Hispanic audience. Paul Rodriguez congratulated me on this
bit. Unlike you I take my beliefs - however controversial they are
- to the masses.
This charming skit is called 'Niggers and Sand Niggers'
www.indiancomedian.com/Niggerniggers.mp3
Its not a skit. Don't insult me by making me a sketch artist.
I am a standup and will be for the rest of my life.
This was taped at Pepperbellys in Fairfield in front of a
largely black crowd. I am alive ain't I . If they objected
then they know how to take care of someone who they don't like.
I have also done this bit at Dorsey's locker in Oakland ,Ca.
At 62nd and Shattuck.
See this is where your (Jame's) latent racism shows. He is so
happy to type the N Word he actually types it TWICE completely
forgetting the Sand part as is required by the clip link. Dude
get yourself checked . Its not me who is going Kramer. My calendar
is doing just fine . Its YOU who is typing your racist agenda
in my guise.
Here is a 'comedy skit' about why Asians are called 'Chinks'
www.youtube.com/watch
Yes. See me do this bit at the Asian Heritage festival in May in
San Francisco in front of 300 Asian folks. I dare you and anyone
out here to come and boo me . If the Asians themselves don't throw
you out I will never do this bit again.
James, my bits are well tested . In front of ALL kinds of crowds.
If I don't have the balls to do these bits in front of the people
its meant for I won't do it. I stand by them completely. I am not
a coward who can't even post a post on astrology at a tribe where
I asked him to like Mickey . ( I see that you have posted it on a
tribe but Mickey put it on the Crossroads of Religion tribe as I have
asked about five times now - till then I am calling you a coward
and standing by it.)
"Everything which he says in these 'comedy skits' is directed towards promoting
racial stereotypes. A caucasian of European ancestry could not say the
things Tapan says on stage without being considered a racist. "
And as for your caucasian of European ancestry could not say the things that I could
- I would point you to your cousin Larry The Cable guy . Read his book .
I can also see why he is successful. Its because of assholes like you.
"Tapan knows this, so uses his own Indian ancestry as a smoke screen to say
the things that white racists really want to say, but can't. "
You mean twice nword typing - white racists like you James ?
This is like the version of the Anti-Semite who claims that it's okay if he says bad things about Jews, because 'he is half jewish himself.
I am not half anything. Fully Indian on his way to U.S. citizenship.
Married to a fully caucasian wife with a half white half Indian child -
a proud new race - my little Windian ! Fuck you James.
We will fuck your women and have biracial kids - no
matter how much you try to keep us down. Its our right and we will
take it.
Indian ancestry as a smoke screen to say the things ---
How is that a smoke screen ? My ancestry is a smoke screen.
Do you even see how racist you are ? It is what it is. The truth as I see it.
Did you even hear the tremendous applause break that I am getting towards
the end of each and every one of these bits. Its from the people
that according to you 'should ' be offended. They are not.
They don't need a go ahead from people like you. You with your uptight
asshole seems to be the only one offended. And I could give a rats ass
about humorless colorless people like you. You are the distilled pondscum
that floats on the top of the fully fertilized latent racism that boils
just beneath the surface of every self fulfilling trustfund baby who thinks
they deserve more than they are actually getting because they are white and
thats the way it has always been. I can't believe that as America inches
closer towards electing a black president - people like you still live
content in the assumption that things will be as they always were. I am sure
Dr.King is turning in his grave as the vibes you give out reach any other person.
Everything which he says in these 'comedy skits' is directed towards promoting racial stereotypes.
-Do you even know the stereotypes ? If you did you will see that instead of promoting them I blow them apart . Maybe its because there is a HISTORY in there that idiots like you fail to read. When a black guy says 'Where my niggas at ? ' He is asking for his friends.
If you say the same thing James - you are taking INVENTORY !!! Jeez read History honky. Do you know anythinga about civil rights ? Do you know anything about slavery ?
And you think my people haven't suffered . Dude do you know about the Brits ruling India for 200 years ? How dare you say that I am a part of the establishment ? This is about as racist as it gets ? A white guy telling an Indian that he is racist.
Enjoy the promotion dude. I will go back trying to get that loan.
************************************************************************************************
Now let me tell you guys why I came here to this tribe.
After the CoExist Comedy show with the SF Atheists I had a long
about 90 minutes long talk with an atheist gentleman in his
60s. That was perhaps one of the most lively discussions I have
ever had in my life - broken only by the bathroom breaks that the
old coot had to take. He, more than Keith Lowell Jensen, my friend
and partner in comedy turned my head around the fact that God may
in fact not exist the way I thought it to be. Atleast not at an
esoteric level. His arguments were completely logical and friendly.
The SF Atheists as a collective left an impression on me as a phenomenally
smart and kindly bunch. The flaw that I made was that of generalization. Not all
atheists are smart or kindly and I shouldn't expect them to be.
Even a great nation like the U.S. has its George Bushes and Rumsfelds.
Even a good bunch of people has their James' and Mickeys and other idiots.
The personal responses that I got from this tribe (about 18 of them) tell me
that my assumption while mostly true needs to be taken with a grain of salt.
Just like you guys do with the God delusion.
James - I will continue this discussion offline with you - as I think you are
an asshole of gargantuan proportions but I don't feel the need to bother the people
of this tribe with your ignorance but if you post this back here I WILL destroy your ignorance here.
Tapan Trivedi -
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Re: Astrology?
Mon, January 14, 2008 - 5:34 PMI am sorry, Tapan, I no longer read posts that are more than twenty-two words long. Did you get the memo? -
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Re: Astrology?
Mon, January 14, 2008 - 5:44 PMShort attention span - you coward !!
Tapan -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Astrology?
Mon, January 14, 2008 - 5:51 PMSelective attention, you can be sure. -
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Tapan
Mon, January 14, 2008 - 7:06 PM<<Even a good bunch of people has their James' and Mickeys and other idiots.
The personal responses that I got from this tribe (about 18 of them) tell me
that my assumption while mostly true needs to be taken with a grain of salt.
Just like you guys do with the God delusion.
James - I will continue this discussion offline with you - as I think you are
an asshole of gargantuan proportions but I don't feel the need to bother the people
of this tribe with your ignorance but if you post this back here I WILL destroy your ignorance here.>>
Tapan,
Respectfully then, since you are a person of great intelligence and talent and Mickey and I have proven ourselves to be ignorant fools, why are you wasting your time here? Why don't you spend your time doing something more productive than being here, such as writing more comedy? What is the message you came in here to deliver? What was the purpose of you joining this tribe ? All I am perceiving from you here is nothing but Argumentam ad Baculum and Argumentam ad Homenium. Now you have the gall to issue a direct threat against me ('I WILL destroy your ignorance here'. As though anyone has ever destroyed anyone else's ignorance before.) You have shown us nothing but vicious venom, egotism and self aggrandizement. You don't seem to have any points to make either, just aggressive bullying and shameless self-promotion. Some might say your words offer more heat than light, but I would go so far as to say it's all smoke and hot air.
I perceive that you are a racist because you appear to describe things in terms of race, at least this is what I have observed. For example, you joined this tribe, then promptly insulted everyone....not just me and Mickey....but EVERYONE as a whole....you told us that we were not allowed (according to you) to use money or use the name of Pascal (because you said so), and then you DEMANDED to know how many of us were racial minorities.
May I ask, why is it important for you to know how many of us are racial minorities? Why is it important for you to know everyone's race? Is race the standard by which you judge people? You still haven't answer this question for needing to know. For the record, 'race' is not one of the qualifications we have for being in the tribe. We don't consider it as important. We don't know everyone's 'race' and it's not something we keep track of in this Tribe either.
As far as the clips from your performances goes, regardless of the audience, and no...I didn't see the audience since the camera does not point to the audience but rather towards the performer on stage....however, regardless of who the audience was the only humor I have seen of yours so far involves nothing but RACIAL stereotypes. Maybe other people find jokes about RACIAL stereotypes funny, but I don't. That's just the way I am, the person I happen to be. I'm not sure if this is because I currently lack the intelligence or sophistication to laugh at jokes about 'N*ggers and Ch*nks' such as the ones we have seen you perform. You just might be right in your belief that I am an ignorant, unsophisticated simpleton who cannot grasp the sophisticated wit and the subtlety of your stand-up humor about racial minorities.
In that case, I regret to inform you that you have been banging your head against a wall here. You have just wasting your time with us, throwing pearls before swine. You were right and I was wrong. You win. Go home.
P.S. You don't get to set the terms and conditions of our discussions Tapan. Not now, not ever. You don't get to tell me whether I am 'allowed' to mention the name of 'Pascal' when referring to 'Pascal's Gambit'. You don't get to decide whether Atheists should be 'allowed' to use money or not. I have no interest in further 'discussions' with you at all, which are nothing more than one-sided bullying, brow-beating and prejudice on your part. Not off line, not in a parking lot, not in a dark alley. We are NOT your whipping boys and we do NOT deserve your abuse, and neither will we tolerate it. I suggest you take your venom elsewhere. -
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Re: Tapan
Mon, January 14, 2008 - 8:16 PMPascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal Pascal -
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Re: Tapan
Mon, January 14, 2008 - 9:37 PMLOL. I suppose I'll read that one, since it's the same word several times over. -
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Re: Tapan
Mon, January 14, 2008 - 9:41 PMBetter hurry. You never know if Tapan has called the TOUguy yet. -
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Re: Tapan
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 6:48 AMTedster, you naughty kitten!
I thought Tapan told us we weren't permitted to use the name Pascal!
I'll bet you have been making and spending money too, behind everyone's backs! -
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Re: Tapan
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 7:24 AMI'll bet that's the first time anyone has called Tedster a kitten.
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Re: Tapan
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 10:16 AM"We are NOT your whipping boys and we do NOT deserve your abuse, and neither will we tolerate it. I suggest you take your venom elsewhere. " - Once again the racist comes out ! Dude when someone is accusing you of being a racist and asking you to learn history of slavery - whipping boys might not be the best term to use. You are clueless. And I will leave you to your racist observations you ignorant hick ! I ain't going nowhere. In fact , I am inviting a LOT more of people like me here. You GO. You go to the tribe that is meant for you. Unless the moderator decides to kick me and the rest that I am inviting here - YOU GO.
You , and Mickey and Ted and your ignorant posse.
Tapan -
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Are you threatening me?
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 12:11 PMCan you please explain to me what you meant by this, Tapan?
<<James - I will continue this discussion OFFLINE with you - as I think you are
an asshole of gargantuan proportions but I don't feel the need to bother the people
of this tribe with your ignorance but if you post this back here I WILL destroy your ignorance here.>>
I'm a little confused as to what you meant by this. "I WILL continue this 'discussion' OFFLINE with you'. The reason being "I think you are an asshole of gargantuan proportions." What possible 'discussion' would you want to have with a 'gargantuan asshole'. Also, why are you insisting that this 'discussion' WILL happen 'offline'? Is this some sort of veiled threat of physical violence?
What exactly did you mean when you said that you will DESTROY my ignorance?
Are you threatening me?
Before you say anything more, please consult with your lawyer about the wisdom involved in your continual criminal harassment and threats of violence against me which you have not only made in public (online for everyone to see), but which are recorded IN WRITING in front of a dozen or potentially hundreds of WITNESSES.
Criminal harassment and threats of violence are both considered illegal activities for which you can be criminally charged. I have already given you the option to leave gracefully and peacefully. Now you are venturing into the territory of a potential litigation suit which might prove to be somewhat lucrative for me, especially seeing as how you are a local celebrity. I might not have much of a case at the moment but the initial threat of violence and Harassment is clearly evident, and should be enough to start the ball rolling. it seems as though the paper trail of evidence of your hatred increases with every post you make.
It also most certainly gives Mickey something interesting to write about in _Khabar_ magazine as well.
<<"We are NOT your whipping boys and we do NOT deserve your abuse, and neither will we tolerate it. I suggest you take your venom elsewhere. " - Once again the racist comes out ! Dude when someone is accusing you of being a racist and asking you to learn history of slavery - whipping boys might not be the best term to use.>>
You are aware that 'whipping boy' is an expression with no connotations to 'race', aren't you?
This might surprise you to learn, but you can whip anyone regardless of their race.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whipping_boy
I say the word 'whipping' and the first thing that pops into your mind is 'black people'. Yet YOU are accusing me of being the racist?
<<I ain't going nowhere. In fact , I am inviting a LOT more of people like me here. You GO. You go to the tribe that is meant for you. Unless the moderator decides to kick me and the rest that I am inviting here - YOU GO. >>
A grammatically grating double negative, another groundless threat from you, and then another stupid demand. In capital letters no less. How repetitive and boring.
You seem to think that you are going to be able to round up more trolls from the 'great troll farm' and invite them onto the Atheist tribe, as though such a thing never occurred to them before to spew venom and rile us up? You don't think there have been other trolls that have been in here besides yourself? You don't think that all these trolls have been kicked already? What is the purpose? Why are you doing this? What is your objective for being here? Seriously Tapan, haven't you got anything better to do with your time besides implicating yourself? Shouldn't you be spending this time online right now with the people you love such as your wife and kid, instead of wasting your time with the people you hate such as Atheists and 'white' people? That is, 'white' people besides your wife and kid?
Also, Mickey, Ted and myself are members not only of this Tribe, but also of 'Atheists Only' already. We can all belong to as many Tribes as we wish. I see no reason to leave this tribe, merely because of your obnoxious insistence that I do so. -
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Re: Are you threatening me?
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 1:59 PMLet's stop feeding the troll. -
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Let's stop feeding the troll.
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 7:18 PM<<Let's stop feeding the troll.>>
I'm in agreement with you on this Mickey.
I apologize to you and everyone else for indulging the troll as much as I have. -
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Re: Let's stop feeding the troll.
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 9:46 PM>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
One thing I should add.
Pascal
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Re: Are you threatening me?
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 5:04 PMJames,
Sue me. I dare you to sue me. In fact if you have an ounce of courage left in that stupidass body of yours - SUE ME! I am declaring here in front of allt he members of this tribe that you don't have the balls to sue me.
I will destroy you in court as I am destroying you here. Potential witnesses - James, judging by the private tribe mails from people who are beginning to hate you from this tribe - you have a rude awakening coming your way.
So sue me. I will take it to court just to see you squirm when comes the time to swear on the Bible. Lets take this to court. I am ready and willing. Are you ?
Lawsuit - the last resort of a coward white racist !
You are a man of your word right ? You are a man right ?
Tapan Trivedi -
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Re: Are you threatening me?
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 11:23 PM"I will destroy you in court as I am destroying you here."
Talk about delusions of grandeur. -
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Re: Are you threatening me?
Tue, January 15, 2008 - 11:35 PM>>>>>>>>>>Talk about delusions of grandeur
Yes, and when somebody has that and hears voices, they need to be given Thorazine and be put in the rubber room.
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Re: Are you threatening me?
Wed, January 16, 2008 - 12:15 AMthis thread has taken a turn for the psychotic. -
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Re: Are you threatening me?
Wed, January 16, 2008 - 12:24 AMI don't know why you say that. All of my friends under my bed say that everything is normal. -
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Horrorscopes
Wed, January 16, 2008 - 6:18 AM<<I don't know why you say that. All of my friends under my bed say that everything is normal.>>
That's hilarious! It reminds me of the shirt which says "You are just jealous because the voices are talking to ME!"
However, to get back onto Mickey's topic.
I don't believe in the horoscopes, but I like to read them anyways. I find that they are good as entertainment value, and I think that is how they are meant to be interpreted.
There was a scientific study conducted regarding Astrology. The researchers took a group of people that believed in Astrology, as well as a 'control' group that didn't believe in Astrology. They put these people in a situation where they would be isolated from the normal media, and then they switched their daily horoscopes around. Virgo got the Scorpio forecast, Leo got Gemini, etc. EVERYBODY said that their daily horoscopes came true. Even those in the control groups who didn't believe in horoscopes said that their horoscopes came true. The researchers concluded that horoscopes were a 'self-fulfilling prophecy'. If you believe that something is going to happen, then subconsciously you are making it happen to yourself. -
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Re: Horrorscopes
Wed, January 16, 2008 - 7:25 AMI've never believed in horoscopes or astrology. I also don't believe in aroma therapy or mystical crystal powers.
I HAVE, however SEEN and MEASURED the electric charge that comes off a crystal of tourmaline when it's heated over a propane flame. This property of pyroelectricity is actually mentioned in Dana's Manual of Mineralogy. That is pretty neat, in its own peculiar way. But as to mystical healing powers?
Give me two asprin and call me. -
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Re: Horrorscopes
Wed, January 16, 2008 - 8:06 AMIt surprises me that someone who so craves an audience would be so quick to alienate an audience.
Let's stop feeding the troll.
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Re: Horrorscopes
Wed, January 16, 2008 - 8:07 AM< Give me two asprin and call me. >
Sage advice in general. You should write a hororscope. -
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Re: Horrorscopes
Wed, January 16, 2008 - 8:31 AM<Sage advice in general. You should write a hororscope. >
Thanks. I'm just not willing to write about something I don't believe in, and portray it as having meaning.
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Re: Horrorscopes
Wed, January 16, 2008 - 8:11 AM< I don't believe in the horoscopes, but I like to read them anyways. I find that they are good as entertainment value, and I think that is how they are meant to be interpreted. >
You know, I have a hard time viewing them as entertainment value. I know too many people who put some stock in their horrorscopes, or into astrology in general, even if they never read the paper. They do readings, consult star charts, and make sure the feung schwee of their homes is balanced. And some of them are white collared professionals on executive track. For them to put THAT much effort into a thing...
I have a hard time viewing it as entertainment, and at the best of times, view it as a complete waste of time. The rest of the time, it's another potentially harmful and totally archaic belief system.
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Re: Are you threatening me?
Wed, January 16, 2008 - 8:06 AM< Talk about delusions of grandeur. >
LOL! -
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Re: Are you threatening me?
Wed, January 16, 2008 - 12:26 PM"Before you say anything more, please consult with your lawyer about the wisdom involved in your continual criminal harassment and threats of violence against me which you have not only made in public (online for everyone to see), but which are recorded IN WRITING in front of a dozen or potentially hundreds of WITNESSES" -
Criminal harassment my ass . I would spit on your face but that would be an insult to my spit. Cowardice like this is repugnant. Come on James grow a pair and sue me as you claimed you would. Coward Coward Coward. All talk and no action.
Dude - if you have an ounce of courage left in you - sue me as you so were so willing before I called you on it.
Are you suing me or not James ? Or are you a coward ? You are a racist I know but you are also a coward !!
Are you putting this post on the Crossroads of Religion tribe or are you a coward Mickey?
Tapan -
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Re: Are you threatening me?
Wed, January 16, 2008 - 4:28 PMThis was entertaining for a while, but I'm bored now with the dick measuring contest this has become.
Next! -
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Re: Are you threatening me?
Wed, January 16, 2008 - 5:46 PMYeah, really. I think the pimple that is between Tapan's legs is clearly evident. -
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the sacred words
Wed, January 16, 2008 - 8:26 PMI think that Astrology is the oldest religion. I think of it as the mother of all religions. 'Astrology' was first invented by the Mesopotamians, and disseminated throughout the Middle East, Far East, Africa and Europe. The connection between Astrology and religion is clear if you look at the pantheon of ancient Babylonian deities. All the Gods and Goddesses are the personifications of stars and planets. For the people of the Ancient world, there was no mystery about whether the Gods and Goddesses existed. You could point to them as they moved across the night sky. The Goddess Ishtar for example, was the planet Venus who became known as the Ancient Roman Goddess 'Venus', the Greek 'Aphrodite', and later 'Lucifer' who only became associated with Satan later in the 15th century.
I know that 'Astro-Theology' is a favorite topic of Chopper's, and was also a topic discussed at length in the 'Zeitgeist' film. Jesus is not the 'Son of God', he is the 'Sun God'. The same can be said for Krishna, Mithras, Dionysus, Horus, Apollo, etc. The story of Jesus traces the path of the sun through the twelve 'houses' of the zodiac signs. Jesus (the Sun) was 'born of a Virgin' during the winter equinox because in that part of the world the sun 'originates' from the constellation of Virgo the VIRGIN. The God Krishna (whose name also means 'The Anointed one') was also born of a Virgin, called 'Maya'. The God Horus was born of a virgin, whose name was 'isis-Meri', and so forth.
I think that the early science of Astronomy allowed the ancients to predict with great accuracy the best times for harvest and planting, as well as events such as flooding, eclipses and so forth. The stars and planets move in regular, predictable patterns. Same with the seasons. The stars also permitted fairly precise navigation by land and sea, especially in an age without compasses or maps. I think that the mythology of Astrology arose out of the science of Astronomy as a way of remembering the positions of the stars. Remember the silly rhymes and chants you may have used as schoolboy as an aid to your memory? The names, positions and directions of the stars would be much easier to remember if there was a story behind them, such as the constellation of Scorpius chasing the constellation of Orion (Hercules).
Somewhere along the line, the connection between the science of Astronomy and the celestial myths about the stars became lost and completely disassociated from one another.
I'm imagining this would be something like the Star Trek (Original series) episode where Kirk lands on an alternate future planet where the United States has been overrun and colonized by Communist Chinese (called the 'Chins'). The few Americans which remain free from their conquerers hide in the hills and forests as guerrillas, living like and resembling the indigenous peoples of the North American continent did before the European conquest. These few surviving Americans (called 'Yangs') consider the pledge of Allegiance to be 'the sacred words', speaking such a distorted and garbled version that it is scarcely recognizable. These words are read only by the Chief as a ceremonial matter of rote with neither understanding nor comprehension of what they mean.
Or I suppose another comparison might be the 'Planet of the Apes' where a strange cult develops over worshiping the Atomic bomb as the 'Alpha and Omega'.
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Re: the sacred words
Wed, January 16, 2008 - 8:46 PMThis is what I found. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astr..._astrology
I wasn't really sure that it was invented by Mesopotamians, but this article confirms that. -
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Re: the sacred words
Thu, January 17, 2008 - 8:29 AMWell, I suspected that Astrology was developed by the Mesopotamians. However the article that you have pointed out indicates that the Astrology which we are familiar with is a synthesis of Mesopotamian and Egyptian astrology. This is something I didn't know.
I found this part of that Wikipedia article quite interesting.
"In 1975, the American Humanist Association published one of the most widely known modern criticisms of astrology, characterizing those who continue to have faith in the subject as doing so "in spite of the fact that there is no verified scientific basis for their beliefs, and indeed that there is strong evidence to the contrary". Astronomer Carl Sagan found himself unable to sign the statement, not because he felt astrology had any validity at all, but because he found the statement's tone authoritarian."
This is something worth noting. Here we have an 'Atheist' organization (that is, if you consider Humanism to be synonymous with Atheism.) which has approached a well noted celebrity Astronomer and Atheist Carl Sagan for his signature on a document declaring Astronomy to be a pseudoscience. Carl Sagan refused on the basis that signing such a document would be lending his credentials and support to an authoritarian statement. (i.e. I hereby officially declare that NO ONE SHOULD BELIEVE THIS, so say I and these hundred other scientists.) -
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Re: the sacred words
Thu, January 17, 2008 - 10:55 AM< Carl Sagan refused on the basis that signing such a document would be lending his credentials and support to an authoritarian statement. (i.e. I hereby officially declare that NO ONE SHOULD BELIEVE THIS, so say I and these hundred other scientists.) >
Yes, but if I read it correctly, Sagan didn't object to the content as much as he objected to the tone. -
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Re: the sacred words
Thu, January 17, 2008 - 4:37 PM<<Yes, but if I read it correctly, Sagan didn't object to the content as much as he objected to the tone.>>
Yes of course you are right about this, you read it correctly. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.
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Re: the sacred words
Thu, January 17, 2008 - 10:31 AM"Jesus is not the 'Son of God', he is the 'Sun God'...I'm imagining this would be something like the Star Trek (Original series) episode where Kirk lands on an alternate future planet where the United States has been overrun and colonized by Communist Chinese (called the 'Chins')."
Surpised you didn't mention the Star Trek ep, "Bread and Cirsuses," about moderised Romans broadcasting their arena battles (reality TV, indeed), in which the crew thinks that the local religious outcasts worship the sun, and it turns out that they worship the Son. D'oh! Feed 'em all to the lions. -
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Re: the sacred words
Thu, January 17, 2008 - 4:35 PM<<Surpised you didn't mention the Star Trek ep, "Bread and Cirsuses," about moderised Romans broadcasting their arena battles (reality TV, indeed), in which the crew thinks that the local religious outcasts worship the sun, and it turns out that they worship the Son. D'oh! Feed 'em all to the lions.>>
Yeah, I remember that one too. However, I was trying to make an analogy to how a mythological story invented to describe the movements of the stars and planets can devolve into believing just the myth itself and somehow forgetting that it had something to do with the stars.
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Re: Are you threatening me?
Thu, January 17, 2008 - 7:02 AMbut I'm bored now with the dick measuring contest this has become.
I have to agree with Allen. There is no substance or debate in the name calling. It is not impressive, it proves nothing of substance. Shedding light on alternative viewpoints can be educational. Coming up with verifiable evidence to back your claims is impressive.
Bring something to the table, or don't be surprised when others lose interest.
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