The more the church tries to play intellectual catch-up, the more irrelevant it seems. Some of these pronouncements sound exactly like stand-up comedy (cross-posted on Evolution tribe):
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7399661.stm
Vatican says aliens could exist
By David Willey
BBC News, Rome
The Pope's chief astronomer says that life on Mars cannot be ruled out.
Writing in the Vatican newspaper, the astronomer, Father Gabriel Funes, said intelligent beings created by God could exist in outer space.
Father Funes, director of the Vatican Observatory near Rome, is a respected scientist who collaborates with universities around the world.
The search for forms of extraterrestrial life, he says, does not contradict belief in God.
The official Vatican newspaper headlines his article 'Aliens Are My Brother'.
Just as there are multiple forms of life on earth, so there could exist intelligent beings in outer space created by God. And some aliens could even be free from original sin, he speculates.
Asked about the Catholic Church's condemnation four centuries ago of the Italian inventor of the telescope, Galileo, Father Funes diplomatically says mistakes were made, but it is time to turn the page and look towards the future.
Science and religion need each other, and many astronomers believe in God, he assures readers.
To strengthen its scientific credentials, the Vatican is organising a conference next year to mark the 200th anniversary of the birth of the author of the Origin of Species, Charles Darwin.
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7399661.stm
Vatican says aliens could exist
By David Willey
BBC News, Rome
The Pope's chief astronomer says that life on Mars cannot be ruled out.
Writing in the Vatican newspaper, the astronomer, Father Gabriel Funes, said intelligent beings created by God could exist in outer space.
Father Funes, director of the Vatican Observatory near Rome, is a respected scientist who collaborates with universities around the world.
The search for forms of extraterrestrial life, he says, does not contradict belief in God.
The official Vatican newspaper headlines his article 'Aliens Are My Brother'.
Just as there are multiple forms of life on earth, so there could exist intelligent beings in outer space created by God. And some aliens could even be free from original sin, he speculates.
Asked about the Catholic Church's condemnation four centuries ago of the Italian inventor of the telescope, Galileo, Father Funes diplomatically says mistakes were made, but it is time to turn the page and look towards the future.
Science and religion need each other, and many astronomers believe in God, he assures readers.
To strengthen its scientific credentials, the Vatican is organising a conference next year to mark the 200th anniversary of the birth of the author of the Origin of Species, Charles Darwin.
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Re: Vatican says aliens could exist!
Tue, May 13, 2008 - 6:26 PM> And some aliens could even be free from original sin, he speculates.
Glad to see we're putting those God-given neurons to good use. -
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Re: Vatican says aliens could exist!
Tue, May 13, 2008 - 7:28 PMLooks like the Vatican is going to have to start investing in rocket technology, so they can put a Catholic church on Mars and start converting all the green skinned heathens.
After all, those green-skinned love slave girls like to fuck like space bunnies. Remember Captain Kirk encountered one on Star Trek? They need to be taught shame, fear, humility, duplicity, and all those other values which the Catholic church instilled (or tried to instill) upon the aboriginal peoples of this continent.
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Re: Vatican says aliens could exist!
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 6:47 AMWhy does science need religion? What do they have to offer of any value to science? Religion has always been a stumbling block, a satanas, to science. -
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Re: Vatican says aliens could exist!
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 9:04 AM"Why does science need religion?"
The better question might be, why do so many scientists need religion? -
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Re: Vatican says aliens could exist!
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 9:33 AMI doubt that any scientists need religion. They choose it. Perhaps they were either indoctrinated from an early age (successful brainwashing is almost irrepairable) or are not willing to defy their peer groups. Or maybe something along their personal travels brought them to religion. It could be any number of reasons. It doesn't matter... I don't assume that a single "scientist" knows everything about every field. I wouldn't ask my oncologist to fix my car. But to answer your (Josh's) question, I would ask you to prove their "need" of religion. To say they "need" religion implies that they would die (or be killed) without it. The opposite can be easily proven simply by the number of scientists (or laymen) that dont "need" religion to live a long and happy life.
Regardless, you are confusing question by putting the person in place of the field. What you are basically saying is "Why does a brain surgeon need religion?", which wasn't actually the question. It was more like "Why does the field of brain surgery need religion?" -
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Re: Vatican says aliens could exist!
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 4:01 PMJoseph Ratzinger phone home ...
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Re: Vatican says aliens could exist!
Fri, May 16, 2008 - 7:30 AM>>>>>>>But to answer your (Josh's) question, I would ask you to prove their "need" of religion. To say they "need" religion implies that they would die (or be killed) without it. <<<<<
I take at their word the many scientists who claim that religion is profoundly important to them. I chose the word 'need' because it's the word Krampus used and not because I thought they would die without religion. (They wouldn't die without their children or careers either, but I suspect those things are important to them too, as are friendship and a satisfying sexual relationship, not to mention a bit of money in the bank.)
You're right that I'm talking about persons rather than the field. The *field* of science is needless. (Science has no need of science, for that matter; we do.)
Stephen Jay Gould got hammered by Dawkins for saying something true: Gould said he knew a lot of good scientists who were religious and a lot of good scientists who were not, meaning that in some sense being religious is compatible with being a good scientist and being non-religious is compatible with being a good scientist.
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Re: Vatican says aliens could exist!
Fri, May 16, 2008 - 7:34 AM>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I chose the word 'need' because it's the word Krampus used...
Did you even read the article Josh? I used "need" because that is what the article said. Here is the quote, "Science and religion need each other, and many astronomers believe in God, he [Father Funes] assures readers."
Can you not be intellectually honest even once? -
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Re: Vatican says aliens could exist!
Fri, May 16, 2008 - 7:42 AM>>>>Can you not be intellectually honest even once? <<<<
I am intellectually honest as a matter of course. I used the word "need" because of the claim you made that I remarked on. I skimmed the article but was not talking about it.
For the record, I would disagree that "science and religion need each other", though I understand that many human beings feel a need for both science and religion, including many scientists (and many theologians). -
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Re: Vatican says aliens could exist!
Fri, May 16, 2008 - 7:46 AM>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I am intellectually honest as a matter of course. I used the word "need" because of the claim you made that I remarked on. I skimmed the article but was not talking about it.
You are never intellectually honest. You need not have said, "because that is what Krampus said" because it was what the article claimed!! You were trying to criticize me and not the article. But you admit you did not read the article closely. How is this intellectually honest?
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Re: Vatican says aliens could exist!
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 4:12 PMThey already believe in at least 2 "sky men", what's a few more? :) -
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Re: Vatican says aliens could exist!
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 4:48 PMI've never understood the idea that science and religion can coexist in any way but to completely ignore each other.
Science proclaims the value of lending limited, provisional belief to any given proposition in proportion to its ability to explain the universe and its conformance to observable data.
Religion proclaims the value of lending absolute belief to certain specific propositions regardless of the evidence.
Science does not allow the strength of your belief, the size of your congregation, the history of your faith, the moral behavior of its adherents, the consequences of belief or disbelief, threats of hellfire or promises of eternal salvation as arguments for the truth value of a proposition.
Religion does not allow an article of faith to ever, ever be found to be untrue. Even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, religion demands that you continue believing until you or someone in authority (depending on the organization of your church) is "vouchsafed a personal revelation" that the evidence is in fact trustworthy and the now defunct article of faith can either be dismissed or proclaimed to be a "metaphor" for something.
Science proclaims all knowledge to be provisional, likely faulty and subject to revision.
Religion proclaims certain knowledge to be not only beyond all doubt, but even beyond all QUESTIONING. Oh, don't ask THAT! God might get mad at you!
Saying that science and religion need each other is like saying that rationality and irrationality need each other. If it wasn't for irrationality, how would you even know what rationality was?
No, science doesn't need religion. You never need to square up your data and findings in a scientific paper with biblical prophecy or papal proclamations. Jesus had nothing interesting to say about cell division or astronomical objects because he was unfamiliar with these things because he was an ordinary human being.
Religion is childish superstitious nonsense and should be discarded completely. -
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Re: Vatican says aliens could exist!
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 5:17 PMhallelujah!
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Re: Vatican says aliens could exist!
Fri, May 16, 2008 - 7:37 AM>>>>>>Science proclaims all knowledge to be provisional, likely faulty and subject to revision. <<<<<<
This is false.
First, no science (-physics, chemistry, biology, anthropology, psychology, what have you) yields such an across the board conclusion about all science, let alone all knowledge.
Second, if any scientist said the above, there would be no scientific reason to believe him.
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Re: Vatican says aliens could exist!
Fri, May 16, 2008 - 6:41 AMScientists allow for the possibility of other life forms on other planets; it just seems statistically probable. Father Gabriel Funes is making much stronger claims. He seems to be assuming that human-like intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe.
Just another example of making claims that go beyond the evidence even hypothetical claims that go beyond what reason permits. -
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Re: Vatican says aliens could exist!
Fri, May 16, 2008 - 7:39 AM>>>>>>>Just another example of making claims that go beyond the evidence even hypothetical claims that go beyond what reason permits. <<<<<<
The search for intelligent life elsewhere is not restricted to a few Vatican scientists. You remember Carl Sagan, don't you? -
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Re: Vatican says aliens could exist!
Fri, May 16, 2008 - 7:43 AM>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>he search for intelligent life elsewhere is not restricted to a few Vatican scientists. You remember Carl Sagan, don't you?
Again, not what I claimed. Straw Man. -
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Re: Vatican says aliens could exist!
Fri, May 16, 2008 - 8:06 AM>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>he search for intelligent life elsewhere is not restricted to a few Vatican scientists. You remember Carl Sagan, don't you?
Again, not what I claimed. Straw Man. <<<<<<<<<<
Let's start over. I don't know what you are talking about and regret speaking. I apologize.
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Re: Vatican says aliens could exist!
Fri, May 23, 2008 - 8:46 AMLet us suppose for the sake or argument that there really are sentient aliens who are free of original sin. Would that entail that they lack free will? The ability to discern right from wrong? Do they run around naked all the time? -
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Re: Vatican says aliens could exist!
Fri, May 23, 2008 - 8:55 AM>>>>>>Would that entail that they lack free will?<<<<<<
Not necessarily. After all, Adam and Eve were not born with original sin yet they chose to sin. Further, the angels are sentient beings who are free of original sin, though they are not human persons.
Original sin is really Augustine's baby----Jews have never accepted it and neither have the Orthodox churches, which go back as far as do the Roman / Western ones. (Indeed, in its inception, Christianity is an Eastern, not Western, religion.) Many Protstants follow Augustine when they think they are following the Bible.
>>>>>>>Do they run around naked all the time? <<<<<<
Not if they live among cacti. -
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Re: Vatican says aliens could exist!
Fri, May 23, 2008 - 9:11 AM>>>>>>>Many Protestants follow Augustine when they think they are following the Bible.
True that!
I was taught, in a Southern Baptist church, that Adam & Eve lacked free will until they ate of the tree. I always thought that view was self-contradictory. I was also taught that the angels lack free will.
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I was mostly joking in that post. -
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Re: Vatican says aliens could exist!
Fri, May 23, 2008 - 10:31 AMlikewise.
"I was taught, in a Southern Baptist church, that Adam & Eve lacked free will until they ate of the tree. I always thought that view was self-contradictory. I was also taught that the angels lack free will. "
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Re: Vatican says aliens could exist!
Sat, May 24, 2008 - 1:44 AMIn a modern day court of law, the story of Adam and Eve would be called "Entrapment".
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Re: Vatican says aliens could exist!
Sat, May 24, 2008 - 7:33 AM>>>>>>>>I was taught, in a Southern Baptist church, that Adam & Eve lacked free will until they ate of the tree. <<<<<<
That makes no theological sense! For starters, they were created in the image and likeness of God and that's traditionally been understand as the capicities to reason and to choose. If they had no free will, they can't be held to be at fault!
>>>>>>>>>I was also taught that the angels lack free will. <<<<<< The case of angels is more complicated theologically but Scripture seems clear enough that there was a *rebellion* in heaven (-Revelation). It's hard to rebel without free will, and without free will,it's hard to *fault* someone morally. My understanding is that because angels are 'minds without bodies', they make irrevocable choices. (Experience cannot impinge upon them; in a sense, angels have existence without experience!) But "angelology" is a subject little studied anymore----despite the popular interests in angels, which owes nothing to Scripture or theology.
Yeah, I thought you were speaking tongue in cheek.
Is there a source for official Southern Baptist teachings? -
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Re: Vatican says aliens could exist!
Sat, May 24, 2008 - 11:26 AM>>they were created in the image and likeness of God and that's traditionally been understand as the capicities to reason and to choose.<<
Well, the logical conclusion to this would be one of:
1. God intended for them to sin
2. God made a mistake and didn't give them enough resolve, as he must have
3. God sins
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Re: Vatican says aliens could exist!
Mon, May 26, 2008 - 9:50 PM4. God's just a total dick. -
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Re: Vatican says aliens could exist!
Mon, May 26, 2008 - 9:54 PMThat would explain quite a bit.
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Re: Vatican says aliens could exist!
Mon, May 26, 2008 - 11:01 PMand you think that consubstantiation does?
oh right, you're not catholic anymore.
"That makes no theological sense! " -
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Re: Vatican says aliens could exist!
Tue, May 27, 2008 - 3:04 PM>>>>>>and you think that consubstantiation does? <<<<<<<
Consubstantiation was Luther's position, not the Catholic one. Catholics believe in transubstantiation. I no longer believe in that but I *understand* what the teaching is, whereas I *cannot* understand how Adam could have sinned without having free will.
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Re: Vatican says aliens could exist!
Tue, May 27, 2008 - 7:16 AM>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Is there a source for official Southern Baptist teachings?
www.sbc.net/BFM/bfm2000.asp -
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Re: Vatican says aliens could exist!
Tue, May 27, 2008 - 3:04 PM>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Is there a source for official Southern Baptist teachings?
www.sbc.net/BFM/bfm2000.asp <<<<<<<
Thanks, K. I downloaded the PDF and will go over when time permits.
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Re: Vatican says aliens could exist!
Wed, May 28, 2008 - 6:49 AMJosh,
Keep in mind that each individual SB church votes independently whether or not to adopt the Baptist Faith & Message either in whole or in part. -
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Re: Vatican says aliens could exist!
Thu, May 29, 2008 - 7:54 AMYeah, I knew it was something like that. Each church is unto itself.
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Re: Vatican says aliens could exist!
Fri, May 30, 2008 - 1:18 AMthey know?
ROFL
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Re: Vatican says aliens could exist!
Mon, June 2, 2008 - 8:01 AMAlien Jesus:
leagueofavatars.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/alien-jesus.png
Alien Jesus Crucified:
www.ecovoxrecords.com/noodlem...sus1.jpg