Being a devout Roman Catholic I never expected to join an Atheist tribe list, but I ended up in this list by accident. I was looking at a posting on the late Diane Glass, the journalist, and her site had your site listed as one of her tribes. I noticed that one of you asked the question, if there was someone on the list that was not an atheist, why are you Christian. I must admit my first feelings was to not respond because I know that tempers can get hot and insults can be thrown around, but I thought I would share my reasons for being a Christian. First thing I want to state is that I am not on this list to hit anyone over the head with the Bible. I am not here to pick a fight or be abusive. I know that you all have reasons for being atheists and I will not be insulting to you or see you as the enemy that needs to be defeated. I will respectfully state why I am a Christian and leave you to assess for yourselves what I have to say. I firmly believe that God has given everyone a free will and does not make anyone believe in Him against their will, so who am I to try to force others when the God I believe in will not violate their free will. I will say what I have to say and you can take it or leave as you wish.
I am a Christian because I believe the evidence best supports that Jesus Christ is God. I am not going to throw out Bible verses or try to dispute evolution or anything like that. The best evidence I believe anyone can ever find is to put Jesus' words to the test to see if they are true. Everyone has to do this for themselves. I will not try to convince you of Jesus divinity by argumentatiion because I believe it would be impossible task and a waste of time. If anyone one wants find out if Jesus truly is God, there is in my opinion, one way that will demonstrate it for someone. It will work because it has nothing to do with argumentation, but experimentation. Go to the New Testement and read Matthew chapters 5-7 of the Sermon of the Mount, it is only 4 or so pages long. This is Jesus' teachings on how we are to live if we are His disciples. Put His words to the test, but you have to do it open mindly. Devote yourself to a year of living out his teachings. You can tell Him (even though I know you believe Him as imaginary as Santa Claus) "I do not believe in You, I think you are make believe, but I will try my best to live out your doctrines, even though I think you are as real as a unicorn."
This is what I did. The more I tried to live out Jesus' teachings, the more I found peace and meaning in my life. Some say Jesus did not even exist, yet His purported words were making a difference. I find it hard to believe that an imaginary doctrine made up by some imbeciles that are too afraid to realize that God does not exists, could make a difference in my life. I pondered on C.S. Lewis famous dictum on Jesus either being God, a lunatic, or a liar pretty convincing. For those who don't know what this is Jesus could be one of three things:
1). Liar, but if He was a liar, saying He was God, yet knowing He wasn't how could he die knowing He was a liar (He was crucified as a blapshemer for saying He and the Father was one, meaning He was God). Logically speaking, who has the nerve to die for a lie? And why would a liar teach such as doctrine that could bring me peace by practicing it? He couldn't be a liar in my opinion
2) Lunatic. I once visited a psych ward. My friend was diagnosed bipolar and was hearing voices. I met some people who belived they were God. They really freaked me out. IF Jesus thought He was God, but wasn't He was a nut job. My logic tells me how can a nut job of the first rate put out a doctrine that changed my life so radically? The guys in the psych ward were in no shape to come out with a doctrine like the Sermon of the mount that has influenced billions of people over thousands of years. The doctrine Jesus taught is too simple and too sublime for a nut case. That left only one possiblity.
3) Lord. He was who He said He was. He was God.
I know my words will convert no one, words are not enough. I am here telling you why I am a Christian. I am a Christian because I tested His words scientifically like a scientist, they worked wonders in my life. Try it out. IF Jesus is not God, what can it hurt you trying to live out the Sermon of the Mount for a month or year. IF we are simply all going to die and go into the great nothingness what have you lost? A little time? Yet if Christ is indeed what He claimed to be, if you try His words out sincerely without telling anyone what you are doing, you might end up finding by testing His words if they are true or not. Heated debates and arguments are useless, a great debater can be wrong, while a horrible debater may be right. I wont debate anyone here on this list. If you want to do what I did, try to faithfully obey Jesus doctrine Matthew chapter 5-7 to see if it really works out and bring you peace. I am not the one to convice you to be Christians, you need to do the test for yourself or chose not to try it. I did and this is why I am a Christ. Thank you all for listening to me. I know we probably don't see eye to eye, but that does not mean we cannot discuss things like this civilly. Sorry for the length.
Ken
I am a Christian because I believe the evidence best supports that Jesus Christ is God. I am not going to throw out Bible verses or try to dispute evolution or anything like that. The best evidence I believe anyone can ever find is to put Jesus' words to the test to see if they are true. Everyone has to do this for themselves. I will not try to convince you of Jesus divinity by argumentatiion because I believe it would be impossible task and a waste of time. If anyone one wants find out if Jesus truly is God, there is in my opinion, one way that will demonstrate it for someone. It will work because it has nothing to do with argumentation, but experimentation. Go to the New Testement and read Matthew chapters 5-7 of the Sermon of the Mount, it is only 4 or so pages long. This is Jesus' teachings on how we are to live if we are His disciples. Put His words to the test, but you have to do it open mindly. Devote yourself to a year of living out his teachings. You can tell Him (even though I know you believe Him as imaginary as Santa Claus) "I do not believe in You, I think you are make believe, but I will try my best to live out your doctrines, even though I think you are as real as a unicorn."
This is what I did. The more I tried to live out Jesus' teachings, the more I found peace and meaning in my life. Some say Jesus did not even exist, yet His purported words were making a difference. I find it hard to believe that an imaginary doctrine made up by some imbeciles that are too afraid to realize that God does not exists, could make a difference in my life. I pondered on C.S. Lewis famous dictum on Jesus either being God, a lunatic, or a liar pretty convincing. For those who don't know what this is Jesus could be one of three things:
1). Liar, but if He was a liar, saying He was God, yet knowing He wasn't how could he die knowing He was a liar (He was crucified as a blapshemer for saying He and the Father was one, meaning He was God). Logically speaking, who has the nerve to die for a lie? And why would a liar teach such as doctrine that could bring me peace by practicing it? He couldn't be a liar in my opinion
2) Lunatic. I once visited a psych ward. My friend was diagnosed bipolar and was hearing voices. I met some people who belived they were God. They really freaked me out. IF Jesus thought He was God, but wasn't He was a nut job. My logic tells me how can a nut job of the first rate put out a doctrine that changed my life so radically? The guys in the psych ward were in no shape to come out with a doctrine like the Sermon of the mount that has influenced billions of people over thousands of years. The doctrine Jesus taught is too simple and too sublime for a nut case. That left only one possiblity.
3) Lord. He was who He said He was. He was God.
I know my words will convert no one, words are not enough. I am here telling you why I am a Christian. I am a Christian because I tested His words scientifically like a scientist, they worked wonders in my life. Try it out. IF Jesus is not God, what can it hurt you trying to live out the Sermon of the Mount for a month or year. IF we are simply all going to die and go into the great nothingness what have you lost? A little time? Yet if Christ is indeed what He claimed to be, if you try His words out sincerely without telling anyone what you are doing, you might end up finding by testing His words if they are true or not. Heated debates and arguments are useless, a great debater can be wrong, while a horrible debater may be right. I wont debate anyone here on this list. If you want to do what I did, try to faithfully obey Jesus doctrine Matthew chapter 5-7 to see if it really works out and bring you peace. I am not the one to convice you to be Christians, you need to do the test for yourself or chose not to try it. I did and this is why I am a Christ. Thank you all for listening to me. I know we probably don't see eye to eye, but that does not mean we cannot discuss things like this civilly. Sorry for the length.
Ken
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Re: Why I am a Christian
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 7:51 PMThank you for your earnest contribution Ken, and welcome to the Tribe.
I don't think many atheists here, or elsewhere for that matter, will dispute whether the aspects of the philosophy attributed to Jesus have any merit. The Sermon on the Mount is one of the great nuggets of philosophy, right up there with Socrates' Apologia. Whether articulation of an excellent philosophy qualifies one for divine status is another matter, however. -
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Re: Why I am a Christian
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 8:00 PMand that is of course assuming that the historical narrative being described here is correct.
and of course, the world is replete with moral philosophies accompanied by claims to access to higher knowledge and power. they go together very well, both at the time and in constructing a community or a movement afterwards.
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Re: Why I am a Christian
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 8:03 PMSorry that I missed the letters -ian in Christian! I am do not thing I am Christ, just a Christian
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Re: Why I am a Christian
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 8:21 PMHey Captain,
You wrote:
"The Sermon on the Mount is one of the great nuggets of philosophy, right up there with Socrates' Apologia. Whether articulation of an excellent philosophy qualifies one for divine status is another matter, however. "
I hear your point, but if the quotations of Christ in the New Testament are his, then it would be strange that a man who can come up with such and excellent philosophy in one part of His teachings and then shortly afterwards states He is God, you have to wonder if he was a lunatic or what he claimed to be. Then you have to figure a lunatic gives such nuggets of wisdom to a bunch of fishermen, tax collectors and the like and their work nets millions of adherents that still worship him thousands of years later. It makes me wonder.
Socrates was a wise man, but he never claimed to be God. It would seem, to me, more likely that Jesus could come up with an excellent philosophy and keep it current thousand years later if He was divine, than if He was a lunatic with a few nuggets of wisdom.
Ken -
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Re: Why I am a Christian
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 8:31 PMbut that's equally true of any religion. they all influence people, and all make claims to to divine. all of them. why is yours special? because it's the biggest? that seems to be the essence of the argument that c.s. lewis is making in mere christianity. what does it being big have to do with anything? where is the line? a billion isn't quite enough to make it most likely the supposed progenator of a religion is divine? it has to be 1.6 billion? 800 million is way below the mark?
"Socrates was a wise man, but he never claimed to be God. It would seem, to me, more likely that Jesus could come up with an excellent philosophy and keep it current thousand years later if He was divine, than if He was a lunatic with a few nuggets of wisdom." -
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Re: Why I am a Christian
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 8:34 PMof course a few hundred thousand isn't even in question.
go down to a few thousand and you're a cult.
or to take the polygamists in texas, you're mainstream mormonism until your elders decide to have a revelation in line with the requirements for utah to become a us state, and then you're a cult.
of course many christians would call mormonism a cult in general, polygamy or no polygamy.
it makes more sense that joseph smith was either insane or a liar than it does jesus because his movement wasn't as successful? or was the relative success of joseph smiths movement somehow a result of the historical power of jesus' divinity? a sort of religious piggybacking effect? -
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Re: Why I am a Christian
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 8:38 PMi mean its all so absurd. particularly since the elephant in the room is that the reason you or anyone else is any particular religion is because they were socialized as children to believe that religion in general, and most likely that religion in particular, is a reasonable thing to believe. and that's at the very least. in practice its more likely that people believe it because it never occurred to them not to believe it, much less that it would be socially possible for them not to believe without severe consequences. -
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Re: Why I am a Christian
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 9:35 PMHi Matthew:
You wrote:
"i mean its all so absurd. particularly since the elephant in the room is that the reason you or anyone else is any particular religion is because they were socialized as children to believe that religion in general, and most likely that religion in particular, is a reasonable thing to believe"
If every person in the world was socialized to be religious, I would agree with you. Madalyn Murray O'Hare raised her children to be atheists, yet her son became a Christian preacher. She went out of her way to teach her children about the unreasonableness of religion, yet that upbringing did not convince her son not to become religious. WHile it is true many children swallow whatever is dished up to them as fact and never questioned it, there are many who never are taught religion and then become religious. On the other hand there are those who are raised religious and become atheists. C.S. Lewis was an atheist and reluctantly became Christian based on his observations of the evidence he looked at. So I do not believe that people become Christians simply because they were taken to Church. I hate to admit it, but many who call themselves Christians don't have a clue their faiths teach and would renounce it if they did. THere was a time I renounced Catholicism, but a closer look at evidence made me come back.
Ken -
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Re: Why I am a Christian
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 9:38 PMsocialization happens through a whole culture, every interaction that the child has with everyone it comes into contact with, with every bit of media that it is exposed to. christianity is obviously dominant in our culture, so the idea that being christian is a reasonable thing to be is obviously big, out there, and has a lot of cultural status and the assumed validity that goes along with that.
atheism is a philosophical position that requires a great deal of thought, intellectual clarity, courage, and consistency to maintain. it is much easier to fall back on socially mandated received answers. -
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Re: Why I am a Christian
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 9:45 PMi admit i have no clue why anybody would convert to another religion from the one they were raised in. it seems completely bizarre to me. i imagine they were in a space where they needed change for other reasons, and that they had a positive emotional experience related to the other religion. who knows, people do all kind of irrational things all the time. -
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Re: Why I am a Christian
Tue, May 6, 2008 - 7:29 AMMatthew, et. al.,
Here is a great paper that explains using rational choice theory how and why people practice religion including switching religions or denominations. Note I did not say "why people believe".
http://http//naasr.com/Iannaccone2006d.pdf
Here is an article on scientific investigations into why people believe; specifically, how religious belief first formed:
www.nytimes.com/2007/03/04...tion.t.html
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Re: Why I am a Christian
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 10:53 PMThat is why I think to be an honest atheist, you should try to be faithful to Jesus doctrine for an extended time to see if it gives you greater clarity on what you reject. Christianity is not socially mandated anymore in our society. You can live comfortably in this society as a non-Christian, but if you watch anything coming from Hollywood, Christians are now held up to great contempt and you are assumed a hick if you believe it. -
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Re: Why I am a Christian
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 10:59 PMmoral precepts have nothing to do with the fact claims about the nature of the universe that christianity makes.
as for it being so much easier to be an atheist because of hollywood...
www.asanet.org/cs/root/to..._distrusted
"That is why I think to be an honest atheist, you should try to be faithful to Jesus doctrine for an extended time to see if it gives you greater clarity on what you reject."
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Re: Why I am a Christian
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 9:42 PM>>>>>>>>>>f every person in the world was socialized to be religious, I would agree with you. Madalyn Murray O'Hare raised her children to be atheists, yet her son became a Christian preacher.
So what. kids often did convert to religions that are not their parents and it is also common for kids to totally abandon religion all together. You can't weigh all of your evidence on one family. -
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Re: Why I am a Christian
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 10:54 PMThats the point I was making to Matthew. So we agree! -
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Re: Why I am a Christian
Tue, May 6, 2008 - 12:14 AMThe only reason why I put that on is that you were just refering to how athiest were becomeing chrisitians to support your statement, and yes we agree on that point, but I had to point out that Christians often drop their religion and become athiest.
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Re: Why I am a Christian
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 9:17 PMHi Matthew,
You wrote:
"it makes more sense that joseph smith was either insane or a liar than it does jesus because his movement wasn't as successful? or was the relative success of joseph smiths movement somehow a result of the historical power of jesus' divinity? a sort of religious piggybacking effect"
IF in two thousand years from now Joseph Smith is as influencial a person as Jesus Christ was in world history then there might be something to His movement. Plus Mormons have never claim that He rose from the dead or had the miracles attributed to Him that the Christian Church has. I know that most atheist do not believe in miracles, but I have seen great evidence from Christian sites like Fatima Portuagal or Lourdes France that have authenticated miracles and healings. The Catholic Church is very slow on authenticating miraculous happenings. They act slowly so because if they authenticated false miraculous occurances atheists and other sceptics would have a field day shooting down Catholic beliefs on the bases of the phony miracles. If you are so inclined, google Lourdes and look at some of the 66 authenticated miracles. I doubt it would change your mind, but at least you would understand a bit why it would influence mine
Ken -
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Re: Why I am a Christian
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 9:30 PMno miracle has ever been "authenticated" to skeptical standards. they are only "authenticated" by people who have a vested interest in miracles being true. the beatification of the recent pope strikes me as being particularly absurd.
and buddha's teachings have been influential for five hundreds years longer than christianity, and he claimed to be a transcendental being with access to absolute cosmic truth.
"They act slowly so because if they authenticated false miraculous occurances atheists and other sceptics would have a field day shooting down Catholic beliefs on the bases of the phony miracles. If you are so inclined, google Lourdes and look at some of the 66 authenticated miracles. I doubt it would change your mind, but at least you would understand a bit why it would influence mine " -
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Re: Why I am a Christian
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 9:49 PMHi Matthew,
You wrote:
no miracle has ever been "authenticated" to skeptical standards
Of course not. If you are true to the doctrine of materialism and you rule out the miraculous before you even examine the evidence then there is no way any miracle can be authenticated. IF you accept no possibility of a divinity before looking at the evidence, you can claim any evidence as illusionary. That is why I do not believe any attempts to argue someone into a religious belief is possible. That is why I say try to follow the Sermon of the Mount for a year and see if you don't feel differently. IF there is a God, maybe he can convinced you for I already know I cannot.
your wrote:
and buddha's teachings have been influential for five hundreds years longer than christianity, and he claimed to be a transcendental being with access to absolute cosmic truth.
The age of the religion is not relevant, the truth of it is. By the way, if I wasn't a Christian, I would be a Buddhist. I think that Buddhism gets it about 80% right, where as Christianity with the added knowlege from, forgive me all, God gets it 100% right. Buddha did not claim to be a trancendental being, he simply discovered if you want some peace, stop desiring things that will eventually cause you turmoil. I kind of like to think Buddha would have been overjoyed to hear what Christ had to say, but he was born before him. I kind of like to think that Buddha is enjoying listening to Jesus today, but then again that is my Christianity talking. :-)
Ken
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Re: Why I am a Christian
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 9:53 PMFunny thing is that the only religion I would consider is Buddhism. A lots right, but in many cases you wont be a heretic for disagreeing with it.
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Re: Why I am a Christian
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 9:53 PMbuddhism has a whole cosmology of myths and descriptions of the divine and transcendent that his followers just made up after he died.
i imagine a similar process happened after jesus died.
and all of that made up stuff of course comes out of the mythological context of hinduism, rather similarly to all the made up stuff in christianity comes from the mythological context of judaism. -
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Re: Why I am a Christian
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 10:03 PMYou know that has been haping for many religions. The Flood, and Moses came from other ancient stories. When the Catholic Church created Easter, It was timed so that it would happen at the same time as Passover. Easter Bunnies and Christmas Trees came form other religion, and also The Devil's image came from Pegan religions.
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Re: Why I am a Christian
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 10:59 PMYou can imagine a similiar process, but in my 30 years of studying Christianity, I haven't seen a similiar process.
Ken
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Re: Why I am a Christian
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 9:06 PMHi Matthew,
You wrote:
"but that's equally true of any religion. they all influence people, and all make claims to to divine. all of them. why is yours special"
The big difference is that no other religion has a founder that claims to be God. Buddha, Mohammed, Confusius , and Moses they all had insights into the human condition and they were not all wrong. There is a certain amount of truth in all religions or they could not have survived the centuries. Jesus is what seperates all religions. Either He was raised from the dead or He wasn't. IF He was then there is something that makes Christianity special, if He wasn't then we Christians are deader than dead in our philosophy.
Let me make a poor analogy to demonstrate why I find the odds of his resurrection more likely than not.
Lets say I want to start a religion worshipping John F. Kennedy as a God. I get twelve of my best friends and try to go around spreading the word that JFK is raised from the dead. We know it is a lie. Shortly after proclaiming His resurrection the authorities start killing my band of friends one at a time. All we have to do to avoid being killed is admit that we never saw JFK resurrected. All twelve of us are willing to be killed in painful way to keep our lie alive, without one person wimping out and admitting the truth of the lie. I find it illogical to conclude that twelve of Jesus apostles lied about the resurrection to preserve a lie. I would have a hard time dying a martyrs death for the truth let alone a lie, so I find it hard to believe the apostles lied about the resurrection.
Maybe in my JFK illustration my twelve friends and I could be all nuts, but how could we all be nuts while propagating a doctrine that JFK is resurrected that would be believed 2000 years later by billions of people? In the case of Jesus' apostles, could they all be crazy and yet still promote a doctrine that would still be going strong 2,000 years later? This seems illogical to me.
So I cannot fathom the apostles lying about resurrection and being able to be painfully killed to keep a lie. I cannot fathom 12 crazy nut jobs testifying to a resurrection and making their story last for thousands of years. My conclusion is that they actually saw a resurrected Jesus and He was able to keep the story alive because of HIs divinity.
Being the biggest religion is not at all important in my eyes nor a testimony to its truth. None of the other religions of the world had a founder who said He was God and the truth was based on a resurrection. I can see the other major religions of the world surving because they based their doctrines on common sense religious teachings like: do not kill, respect God, do not be greedy, and love other. There is nothing odd about the doctines. Yet Christianity is based on a man who called Himself God. Either he is or He isn't. I cannot see how a lunatic that thinks He is God could release a doctrine that would be existent thousands of years later based on His own physical resurrection if there wasn't something divine about it. The survival of Christianity amazes me. Just try to do the same thing based on the resurrection of JFK or anyone else you like and lets put odds that it will still be around five years from now let alone 2,000 years ago! The very survival of Christianity considering what it teaches seems miraculous to me.
Ken -
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Re: Why I am a Christian
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 9:26 PMbuddha did claim to be "enlightened," i.e. to have access to truth beyond what is possible for the rest of us. and his later followers, long after he was dead, claimed that he was a boddhisatva, or an incarnation of a cosmic being of infinite compassion that came to earth to ease the suffering of those who live here, very much like a god. all religions claim to have access to this kind of "truth." many claim to be able to work miracles etc. either they're right or they're not. i really don't see that there's such a distinction.
and of course, this is an emotional or "gut feeling" of whether it "sounds true" or not, not a matter of probabilities, of course. combine the vagueness of that kind of sense with the total lack of evidence that the extremely specific situation that you're describing, eye witnesses to his resurrection being tortured and killed if they don't recant, actually occured and i think you're on very shaky ground. what you're describing is an honest and logical attempt to describe the thought process you've gone through, based on one of the strongest defenses of any particular religion i've ever seen (mere christianity, and i do love c.s. lewis), rather than the abstract defenses of deism we so often see on this tribe, but it just doesn't quite make sense. for one thing, anyone put under torture will eventually say anything that the person torturing them wants them to say.
i agree with you, either he was god or he wasn't. the claim to be god is an extraordinary one and requires extraordinary evidence, what you're putting forward does not count as extraordinary evidence. it seems obvious to me that you've considered it, and came down on the side of your "gut". but where does that "gut" feeling come from? does it really come from the facts? or does that sense of "rightness" or things "fitting together" come from your cultural background, and the assumptions that have been ingrained in you? do you honestly believe that if you had been born in india you wouldn't be hindu? that any "rational" hindu should be swayed by the argument you and c.s. lewis are presenting? -
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Re: Why I am a Christian
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 10:08 PMHi Matthew,
Let me put it this way, the evidence for Christianity appears very strong to me. I find from a logical stand point highly unlikely Christianity could have survived considering what it teaches without divine help. Another thing I realize is that while I cannot prove without a doubt that Christ is in fact God, nobody can prove He doesn't. For all I know God is hiding in on a planet 1,200 light years away and until I can travel from one end of the universe to the other, I can never claim God does not exist for I haven't examined every place He may or may not be hiding. Really I must admit that I find that an atheist has to have greater faith than a Christian to assert "God does not exist". A Christian can look at the amazing fact that Christianity actually survived and have something to lean on regarding their beliefs. To state that God does not exist dogmatically without having traveled to the Andromeda Galaxy to prove He is not hiding out there seems to me to be taking a lot on faith.
you wrote:
if you had been born in india you wouldn't be hindu? that any "rational" hindu should be swayed by the argument you and c.s. lewis are presenting
I would say I probably would be a hindu, but I kind of believe that if someone never gets to hear about Christ and tries to serve God as best they can with what they know, that God will be understanding. IF you read C.S. Lewis' book "The Last Battle" you will know of the case of the Calormene soldier, Emeth, who did not know the great Lion Aslan, but served Tash instead. Emeth, upon meeting Aslan, realized his Calormene faith was not the "true" one and expected condemnation. Aslan tells Emeth, when you tried you best to be loyal to Tash, it is then you were loyal to me. I believe that those who are raised in India as Hindus that sincerely are seeking God will find, after death, that they really were serving God even though they did not know all the particulars about Him. I do not believe a God that would die on a cross for love of His creatures would condemn someone for not knowing something that wasn't in their power to know.
Ken
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Re: Why I am a Christian
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 10:52 PMyes, a particularly annoying thing i remember my pastor saying was "other religions are people searching for god, christianity is god searching for you."
one imagines how a hindu would feel when faced with such a statement.
"I believe that those who are raised in India as Hindus that sincerely are seeking God will find, after death, that they really were serving God even though they did not know all the particulars about Him"
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Re: Why I am a Christian
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 9:27 PM>>"Yet Christianity is based on a man who called Himself God."<<
Actually this is not correct. Jesus called himself the son of God which is different than claiming to be God- we all might be considered sons of God, if God is the creator. The divinity of Jesus was a point of contention in the early church. The debate ended at the council of Nicaea where the doctrine of the trinity was adopted.
Here is some good information on the council of Nicaea which took place in 325 A.D.:
www.serendipity.li/nicaea.htm
Here are some interesting quotes from this article:
"The occasion for Constantine's calling together, in A.D. 325, some 318 bishops at Nicaea, in what is now northern Asia Minor, was a dramatic flaring of the dispute that had been smoldering almost since the crucifixion. Some seven years earlier a certain Arius, a priest of Baucalis in Egypt, had made bold to declare that it was blasphemous to consider Christ, the Logos, as coequal with God. For one thing, since he was begotten by the Father, it was patently absurd to think of them as coeternal, and for another, if he was created (as God was not) it must have been from nothing and not from the divine substance of God. Further, the Holy Ghost, generated by the Logos, was similarly inferior to the Logos, as the Logos was to God."
Thus, three centuries after the crucifixion, the main lines of Christian doctrine were officially laid down. The deification of Christ was now complete, and the mystery elements preached by Paul were now codified into dogma. By the erly fourth century, the unpretentious morality of the Sermon on the Mount was hopelessly outmoded. After Nicaea, a Christian was a devotee of a trinitarian mystery religion who had declared his faith in the annunciation, the passion of Christ, the resurrection, and the last judgment. He had undergone such initiatory rites as baptism and communion, and he looked forward to an eternity of bliss as the reward of his Christian life. "When Christianity came to be defined in these terms," Lewis Mumford has said, "it should have been apparent that Jesus of Nazareth was the first heretic."
"...Indeed, even in the fourth century there were those who had to swallow their objections. Basil, for instance, admitted that the Trinitarian dogma was both incomprehensible and a contradiction in terms — but only in human terms, he adds quickly, "yet not therefore a contradiction in fact; unless indeed anyone will say that human words can express in one formula, or human thought express in one idea, the unknown and infinite God.""
"...No longer was it possible to believe as a Christian that rational knowledge of the highest reality was available to man through his innate rational faculty. By the doctrine of a trinitarian deity — God as the absolute, the Son as the ratio and mediator who links the absolute to the sensible, the Holy Ghost as the principle of divine energy and movement through which the Logos manipulates the realm of sensibles — the Church in effect abolished the dualism of two kinds of being. It legislated out of existence the concept of a rational reality discernible to reason, and substituted the single receptacle of faith. By the supreme paradox of three gods in one, of a Christ that was begotten by the Father and yet had always existed, of a God who was also man without ceasing to be God, the Nicene Creed put all experience beyond the scope of man's comprehension. Before the mystery of the Trinity, as even Aquinas was to confess, man's reason fluttered and failed.
By definition, Christ the God-man annihilated man's proudest possession, his capacity for rational knowledge. Christ as mediator relieved man of responsibility for his conduct. The Socratic dictum was overturned, and virtue was made faith. Through the Logos, God contrives salvation for sinful man, and man's only part in the transaction is to pay the debt of faith to a deity whose workings he could never understand. If you cannot understand, Augustine was to say a century later, believe in order that you may understand. For man and nature lay prostrate before an inscrutable God. As the Nicene Creed states unequivocally, from the workings of the deity are derived the structure and the operation of the sensible world: the unus Deus is the creator coeli et terrae, visibilium et invisibilium. To understand either himself or the world around him man must presume to understand a God who transcends human comprehension. And thus, as Cochrane has said, the Nicene Creed substituted for the classical approach to God through nature the Christian approach to nature through God. Both the exultation of God and the subordination of man were achieved at the Council of Nicaea. Although it took Christendom a couple of generations to produce Augustine, who would mercilessly exploit the degradation of man for which the Nicene Creed provided the theoretical basis, the council inaugurated the theocratic Middle Ages. The era of a thousand years of faith began." -
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Re: Why I am a Christian
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 10:38 PMI did not want to quote scripture, but I do want to show you where Christ claimed his divinity.
Remember in the movie the "Ten Commandments" when Charlton Heston in his flowing robe met God as Moses. God tells Moses to go free His people and Moses tells God, who shall I say send you. What God tells Him gives us a key to who God is. Let me quote what is in the Bible:
Then Moses said to God, " I am to go, then, to the sons of Israel and say to them, "The God of your fathers has sent me to you." But if they ask me what his name is, what am I to tell them?" And God said to Moses, "I AM who I Am." This is what you must say to the sons of Israel "I AM has sent me to you." (Exodus 3:13-14)
Notice that God said "I AM" sent you. He did not say Ralph, Jerry, or Moe, but I AM.
To the Jews of Moses day to Jesus Day, the divine name was so holy they would not call Him by the name I AM, but adonai or Lord to avoid profaning the Holy name. Then one day a Carpenter shows up and tells the people that He preexisted Abraham, a man who lived a thousand years earlier than Jesus and He tells the people who He is:
[Jesus states} Your father Abraham rejoiced and saw my Day, he saw it and was glad.
The Jews then said, "You are not fifty yet, and you have seen Abraham!"
"I tell you most solemnly, before Abraham ever was, I AM'
At this they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus himself left the Temple. (John :56-59)
Jesus was a Jew. Jews were and are to this day Monotheists. Jesus was a Jew. To them there was but one God. God told Moses he was "I AM" a name so holy no body would pronounce it. Jesus then claims that He predated a man who lived centuries before Him and then applies the name of all names for Himself, "I AM".
Later He tells his disciples He and God the father are One,
Phillip said, "Lord let us see the Father and then we will be satisfied," and Jesus said to him "Have I been with you all this time Phillip,"Jesus said to Him "and you still do not know me? To see me is to have seen the Father, so how can you say "Let us see the Father?"
Up until the council of Nicaea the divinity of Christ was not being attacked as much as it was at 325 a.d.. The council only came togethter to stress what the Church had always been teaching and to make it clear that the divinity of Christ was not to be questioned. Christ first taught His divinity. Once Jesus called Himself God, you have to throw out the notion of him being a good philosopher. Either he was lying about being God, he was a nut, or God. I think the evidence points to God. -
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Re: Why I am a Christian
Tue, May 6, 2008 - 7:33 AM>>"Once Jesus called Himself God, you have to throw out the notion of him being a good philosopher. Either he was lying about being God, he was a nut, or God. I think the evidence points to God"<<
The fact that there clearly was a controversy in the early Christian church, tells you that whatever words were written in the gospels can be interpreted in a number of ways. Only in the last gospel, that of John, is there a possible claim to godhood, rather than the claim to be the son of God. Whether Jesus even said this can of course be disputed, as it is only reported in John. Jesus claim to have existed before Abraham does not necessarily make him the creator. Let us suppose he did claim to be god, I fail to see anything to support his claim. My conclusion is that if he made such a claim he was a megalomanic- a common disorder among humans. I don't think Jesus would qualify as a "good philosopher" either. Rather he seems to have picked up bits and pieces of a number of religious traditions and woven togehter something a bit new that became popular. It happens all the time. We have quite a few varieties like this that popped up right here in the USA. Many claim to be Christian, but have jumped off in a new direction. Some are not Christian. The argument that the religion Jesus founded was different- it has lasted for 2000 years, usually pops up here, but there are many religions that have lasted longer and in truth the Christian religion of today's world does not really resemble that of 500 A.D. That of 500 A.D was a bit different than than of 1000 A.D or 1500 A.D. Having a written tradition like the bible has probably allowed more consistancy over the ages, but still the religion has hardly remained the same.
One should also point out that all the "evidence" you point to are simply stories in a book. Who knows whether or how accurately they portray any actual events. Ultimately the only reason you believe in the divinity of Jesus is because this story appeals to you and makes you feel good. There is no rational reason to give it any credence whatsoever.
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Re: Why I am a Christian
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 8:35 PMJohn Lennon was a lunatic (also suffered from a profound Messianic complex). So was Van Gogh and Mozart. They have, and will for millenia to come, offer hope and inspiration to millions. -
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Re: Why I am a Christian
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 9:23 PMHi Pariahcore,
John Lennon may offer inspiration to millions, but his power to do so is lessening as kids are getting into Prince or Mariah Carey. Don't believe there will be many people singing "Imagine" two thousand years from now. Mozart is inspirational, but how many people have been willing to martyred for his sake since he played the magic flute? To provide hope and inspiration is one thing, but to inspire millions of men to be celibate is something Van Gogh , Lennon, and Mozart will probably ever be able to do.
Ken -
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Re: Why I am a Christian
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 9:32 PMthe social control of sexuality is hardly something limited to christianity or directly attributable to jesus.
did he ever even mention the topic of his priesthood abstaining? i doubt it.
"To provide hope and inspiration is one thing, but to inspire millions of men to be celibate is something Van Gogh , Lennon, and Mozart will probably ever be able to do. "
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