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Re: Once Again, Churches are Rushing to Make a Few Dishonest Bucks.
Fri, November 6, 2009 - 3:16 PMFor fuck's sake -- this is not only total bullshit, but incredibly harmful.
I fucking HATE these people. -
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Re: Once Again, Churches are Rushing to Make a Few Dishonest Bucks.
Sat, November 7, 2009 - 12:30 AMIt is absolutely awful.
Wasn't it the Christian Scientists that tried to heal a girl who had an impacted bowel through a prayer circle, and the girl (who could have been treated with a routine medical procedure) ended up vomiting up her own feces before she died? -
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Re: Once Again, Churches are Rushing to Make a Few Dishonest Bucks.
Sat, November 7, 2009 - 8:08 AM<Wasn't it the Christian Scientists that tried to heal a girl who had an impacted bowel through a prayer circle, and the girl (who could have been treated with a routine medical procedure) ended up vomiting up her own feces before she died?>
It was a little boy, actually, but you are right. It is the same cult. Christian Science didn't do much good for Jim Henson either.
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Re: Once Again, Churches are Rushing to Make a Few Dishonest Bucks.
Sat, November 7, 2009 - 7:10 AMThat does totally suck.
OTOH I think it is a good idea for mental heath providers to include shaman and animist rituals in their care. The reason is that it gets people in the door so they can get real treatment. So it is a difficult trade off. You don't want to support religious nonsense, but the result might be beneficial. It is better than their staying away from real health care. That is a serious problem with people from different cultures, you have to establish trust and get their cooperation, yet not endorse their beliefs. -
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Re: Once Again, Churches are Rushing to Make a Few Dishonest Bucks.
Sat, November 7, 2009 - 8:10 AM<That does totally suck.
OTOH I think it is a good idea for mental heath providers to include shaman and animist rituals in their care. The reason is that it gets people in the door so they can get real treatment. So it is a difficult trade off. You don't want to support religious nonsense, but the result might be beneficial. It is better than their staying away from real health care. That is a serious problem with people from different cultures, you have to establish trust and get their cooperation, yet not endorse their beliefs.>
No, Goldguy. If they are so crazy that they think dancing around a bonfire or sacrificing to Odin will cure their AIDS, humoring them will only make things worse. -
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Re: Once Again, Churches are Rushing to Make a Few Dishonest Bucks.
Sat, November 7, 2009 - 1:28 PMBut if letting them do that gets them into the clinic, it might be a good strategy. Of course I'm talking about mental health not AIDS, but in either case it would be more important to get them into treatment than to deny their crazy religion. -
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Re: Once Again, Churches are Rushing to Make a Few Dishonest Bucks.
Sat, November 7, 2009 - 3:51 PM<But if letting them do that gets them into the clinic, it might be a good strategy. Of course I'm talking about mental health not AIDS, but in either case it would be more important to get them into treatment than to deny their crazy religion.>
Sorry Gold Guy but you are so off the mark that you aren't even in the race anymore. Take it from the person who cared for his mentally ill parents for 13 fun filled years, buying into their denial is only going to make things worse. Humoring a mentally ill person might keep them calm, because fucking with their denial often creates a fear/anger reaction, but it is going to make reasoning with the patient harder in the long run.
Ultimately it does not matter if you get the patients into the clinic. Unless the patients recognize that they have a problem, they are not going to cooperate with the treatment. You can forcibly treat them with medication, but unless they recognize why they are being treated, they are going off their meds ASAP. I finally got my mother on lithium after her second heart attack, but once out of the hospital she refused to take it because it made her feel funny.
Face it. Once again, Obama screwed the pooch. -
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Re: Once Again, Churches are Rushing to Make a Few Dishonest Bucks.
Sat, November 7, 2009 - 6:12 PMNo this isn't a race and the situations I'm talking about are nothing like what your talking about. In the situations you describe yeah it wouldn't be a good idea. -
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Re: Once Again, Churches are Rushing to Make a Few Dishonest Bucks.
Sat, November 7, 2009 - 7:14 PMThis does remind me of something perhaps comparable in Canada.
to my knowledge, Canada is the only country with a publicly funded religious and secular school system. That is, as a taxpayer you can decide if your taxes want to go to pay for the secular high school or the 'separate school' system which is a taxpayer funded Catholic school. I think that Canada has gotten into a bit of trouble with the United Nations over this, since they consider it discrimination.
The whole reason it passed through was to placate the French Canadian population, which is roughly half the country. Until about the 1960's, every aspect of French-Canadian life was controlled by the Catholic church. The French Canadians demanded that they be allowed to put their tax dollars towards high schools which reflected their culture, values, and religion. Otherwise, they would simply refuse to pay taxes. You can't put half the people in the country in prison for tax evasion, so at least a quarter of the high schools built in Canada became Catholic schools.
(Actually, most French Canadians are Atheists or agnostics now, or at least non-Catholic but the charade goes on. Interestingly, there are even some Catholic priests that think there shouldn't be publicly funded Catholic schools anymore. )
Well, some of the Protestant religious kooks in Ontario started a lobby group and managed to convince a Provincial candidate from the Conservative party it would be smart to encourage the development of Protestant high schools too. This would be achieved through a tax credit system. You pay $5,000 or whatever a year to send your kid to one of the handful of private Protestant high schools and the government would reimburse you. Sounds fair doesn't it? Catholic high schools are publicly funded through property taxes so why not Protestant schools too?
The Conservative candidate took this tax credit and introduced it as a major plank in his platform. If he was elected, he would start with these tax rebates for 'spiritual schools'.
Then the fun hit the fan.
Muslims started calling his office and telling him how happy they were with the idea, since now they would be able to send their kids to an all-Muslim high school. Many Jews were also pleased with the idea, for much the same reasons. Hindus and Sikhs started calling his office and asking details of how the plan would work, and whether they would get a provincial tax rebate for building new 'Hindu only' and 'Sikh only' schools, and whether the province would pay for the construction of these new schools or whether they would have to fund them and the province would give them a rebate.
Wiccans were also calling his office and asking details about the plan. Wow, wouldn't it be great to have a 'Wiccans only' high school where kids could take courses in spellcraft, and learn about Wotan and Zeus?
However, this Candidate flatly denied the request of the Wiccans stating that they wouldn't qualify. They asked him why not, and he told them he didn't think they were a 'real' religion. They asked him to define what a 'real' religion was. The Wiccan church is recognized as an official relgion in Canada, after all. He said he only considered the 'traditional' religions as the ones that would qualify. (He was trying to insinuate that he meant Protestant Christianity only, but of course he realized he couldn't say this flat out.)
Even if he defined traditional religions as the big three 'Abrahamic' religions, he still put himself in the difficult position of taking public tax money away from a public secular school where kids of all creeds and religions (or lack of) can attend and intermingle. Now instead of building more secular schools, he would be sending tax dollars to fund a 'Muslim only' high school which would be built on public land and will either A) Teach the kids exactly the same thing they would have learned in a secular school anyways, and/ or B) Use public Ontario tax money to teach these kids Muslim values, history, tradition, language, etc.
Or, he could say "NO, I DIDN'T MEAN TAX CREDITS FOR JEWS AND MUSLIMS, WICCANS AND SATANISTS, JUST FOR PROTESTANTS ONLY." However, this is unconstitutional in Canada. So, he just kind of stared like a deer caught in the headlights when the media started asking him details of how the 'tax credits' system would work, considering all the various religions in Canada.
Church and state are separate for good reasons.
If you promise not to pray in our schools, we promise not to learn in your church. -
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Re: Once Again, Churches are Rushing to Make a Few Dishonest Bucks.
Sun, November 8, 2009 - 11:40 AM<to my knowledge, Canada is the only country with a publicly funded religious and secular school system. That is, as a taxpayer you can decide if your taxes want to go to pay for the secular high school or the 'separate school' system which is a taxpayer funded Catholic school. I think that Canada has gotten into a bit of trouble with the United Nations over this, since they consider it discrimination. >
We have a similar problem here in the US. The religious right has been pushing for this same model and it worked. Now our tax dollars are going to support fundie schools and creationist education while our public schools are rapidly going to the dogs. -
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Re: Once Again, Churches are Rushing to Make a Few Dishonest Bucks.
Sun, November 8, 2009 - 7:06 PM<<We have a similar problem here in the US. The religious right has been pushing for this same model and it worked. Now our tax dollars are going to support fundie schools and creationist education while our public schools are rapidly going to the dogs.>>
That's pretty awful. I wonder if the same tactic that was used in Canada would work in the U.S.? Jews and Muslims, Buddhists and Wiccans could start insisting that the government fund their own high schools with public tax money, just as they did with the fundies.
Of course, Canada is a different country with a different history, culture, laws and demographics. I suppose the most relevant differences in this case would be a smaller population and more left wing politics. The constitution is also different.
I remember when I went to high school in the 1980's there was some sort of push from Christians to get prayers in the public schools. I found this odd because there was never any morning prayers or reference to God in the morning exercises before. Then in 1986 they started broadcasting the Lord's Prayer over the loudspeakers, and they actually changed the national anthem too! One of the 'O Canadas' was taken out of the national anthem since it was considered too repetitive. They replaced it with the awkward, bumbling phrase 'God keep our land' instead.
I remember one of my history teachers complained to the board about the introduction of the Lord's prayer. He thought it was unfair (not to mention unconstitutional), since there were non-Christians as well as Christians attending public school. He suggested that you could replace it with a moment of silence, so everyone could say their own prayer (or start planning the party for later that night, or whatever). My History teacher said that they actually threatened to fire him if he pursued it any farther.
Personally, I would just stand out in the hall rather than stand for the Lord's prayer. Jehovah's Witnesses could do this, so why couldn't I? I did hear some explanations to the effect of "It's okay for Jehovah's witnesses to stand out in the hall, because it's part of their faith. That doesn't mean it's okay for you to stand in the hall, just because you say you don't have one (a faith)."
One of my teachers was an obnoxious Fundie Christian and a real piece of work. Among other things, he gave me a 'double F' (FF) on one of my essays. I asked him what that meant, and he told me that zero simply wasn't low enough of a mark.
One of the ironic things is that my friends that went to Catholic school didn't have to recite the Lord's prayer every morning. Except for the uniforms, Catholic school was a lot like secular high school, except it seems the kids were a bit wilder. Religion class in Catholic school was mandatory for the first two years, and that's where they taught you all the doctrine of the Catholic church (Vespers, Transubstantiation, etc.) After these first two years Religion class was optional, but in these classes they also taught you about all the other religions of the world and what they believed in. Ironically, this education in all religious traditions is what Richard Dawkins recommends schools should do.
Immediately after I graduated from High school, someone successfully challenged the constitutionality of the Lord's prayer in public schools and won. They stopped playing the Lord's prayer over the loudspeakers.
My brother told me that when he was in High school, a student that was a self-defined Satanist said that he was offended by the Christmas nativity scene in one of the school's display cabinets. This student said that if the school was going to put up something depicting the Christian faith, then it was only fair to allow him to place something in a school display cabinet to depict his professed Satanic faith. The school promptly pulled the nativity scene out of the display cabinet.
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Once Again, Churches are Rushing to Make a Few Dishonest Bucks.
Sun, November 8, 2009 - 8:51 PM>>>>This student said that if the school was going to put up something depicting the Christian faith, then it was only fair to allow him to place something in a school display cabinet to depict his professed Satanic faith. The school promptly pulled the nativity scene out of the display cabinet.
I love that! -
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Re: Once Again, Churches are Rushing to Make a Few Dishonest Bucks.
Mon, November 9, 2009 - 9:24 AMYeah, I wish I would have thought of that when I was in High school.
Then again, being an Atheist seemed to get me in enough trouble.
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Once Again, Churches are Rushing to Make a Few Dishonest Bucks.
Mon, November 9, 2009 - 12:35 PM<That's pretty awful. I wonder if the same tactic that was used in Canada would work in the U.S.? Jews and Muslims, Buddhists and Wiccans could start insisting that the government fund their own high schools with public tax money, just as they did with the fundies.>
I doubt that it would happen. Back in the bad old days (before 1950) the Protestant Churches were part and parcel of the American Racist Establishment. If you were not white and a member of a mainline protestant church, you were garbage. You did not qualify for certain jobs, you did not qualify for a lot of things. Back in 1965 my parents were forced to sell their house because it was in a restricted neighborhood. (No Jews allowed.) Catholics were almost as good as Protestants as the Catholic church in the U.S fully adopted the Protestant Work Ethic, the Protestant obsession with morality, and joined with the anti-communist hysteria of the McCarthy era. Catholics didn't become "as good as white" until Kennedy took office. Even then, Nixon got quite a share of the popular vote due to Kennedy's religion.
For nearly two centuries, the Protestant churches were the dominant social force in American culture. There are still quite a few precedents in common law that gives them the right to dominate our public school systems. When I was in kindergarten and up to the second grade, there were pictures of Jesus in my classrooms and the teacher had us singing hymns. It was a court battle to end this This is why there are still teachers who preach evolution in the classroom and get away with it. Back in the thirties the courts declared evolution to be the only legal truth and the fundies still run with it.
In the U.S, alternative religions are still fighting for their rights in court. They still have a long way to go before they can even think about demanding tax credits.
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Re: Once Again, Churches are Rushing to Make a Few Dishonest Bucks.
Sun, November 8, 2009 - 11:38 AM<No this isn't a race and the situations I'm talking about are nothing like what your talking about. In the situations you describe yeah it wouldn't be a good idea.>
I don't understand the situations you are talking about. If you are talking about Richard Dawkins and his belief that religions are a mental illness, then I have to disagree most vehemently. Religion is not a mental illness in of itself, but a symptom of any variety of mental illnesses. You might want to peruse a book called "The Courage to Heal."
www.amazon.com/Courage-He.../ref=sr_1_1
Many of the women who share their stories in this book were also victims of religious abuse. Their religious beliefs were put in place as a means of avoiding the memory of the trauma they suffered as children. When they finally confronted the trauma, their religious beliefs vanished like snow in August. Then there is religious schizophrenia or obsessive compulsive disorder. Even depression can lead to religious symptoms.
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